College Rivals

Padres · Post by **Padres** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:05 pm

The opening paragraph reads:

You know what the best part of Kansas and Missouri having their best ever seasons at the very same time is? The entire nation will get exposed to what is possibly the most bitter and hateful rivalry in the country in all it's glory (or shame, if you prefer). You can have your Ohio State v. Michigan or Alabama v. Auburn, but the last time I checked nobody from Columbus ever went to Ann Arbor and systematically executed every man they could find while burning the town to the ground. And certainly nobody made t-shirts later celebrating that fact.

Go here to see the shirt: http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/11/ ... he-ground/

Those shirts are referring to the Lawrence Massacre of 1863 lead by William Quantrill and it's hard to imagine a more macabre gameday shirt. The shirts even have Quantrill's visage and slogan emblazoned on the back - "Raise the Black Flag and Ride Hard Boys. Our Cause is Just and Our Enemies Many". Yet, at the same time, it's more imaginative than the clichÃˆ "Muck Fizzou" or one mascot bending the other over, which has dominated the rivalry t-shirt scene for the years.

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/11/ ... he-ground/

Astros · Post by **Astros** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:53 pm

Being a future history teacher, and someone who reads a ton on the antebellum and Civil War South, let me just give y'all some information. Now I'm by no means condoning Quantrill's ride into Kansas but I'll tell y'all what led to it. There's a couple good movies that depict the Border War, one being The Outlaw Josie Wales and the other being Ride With the Devil, which y'all should look into. Ride With the Devil is especially good because its historically accurate, shows the Lawrence Raid in graphic detail

People in Kansas and Missouri had been fighting since the 1850s and the Kansas-Nebraska Act that allowed popular sovereingty in the territories(allowed the citizens to vote whether they'd have slavery or not). Since Missouri was admitted to the Union as a slave state, it had a lot of transplanted Southerners. Kansas was full of abolishionists like John Brown. Basically Redlegs from Kansas would raid into Missouri and murder and rape and burn. Missourians would raid into Kansas and murder and burn(you'll notice that throughout the Civil War, it was the North that was doing all the targeting against women, children and old folks). One the Civil War started up and Missouri became occupied and Sterling Price's army defeated, Quantrill, Bloody Bill Anderson and other guerilla bands were the only defense from the Redlegs. Being guerillas, they couldn't operate out in the open. The Union army and Jayhawkers knew who the guerillas were and so they rounded up their wives, sisters, mothers, ect. and put them in a jail in Kansas City. Quantrill's men kept on bushwacking and not soon thereafter, the jailhouse just happened to collapse, killing and injuring most of the women inside. Seeing their wives, mothers, sisters ect. murdered, Quantrill decided to ride into Lawrence, which was the hotbed of the abolishionists and kill every man of fighting age and did just that

Royals · Post by **Royals** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:56 pm

Sounds like they're all a bunch of ignorant hicks.

Padres · Post by **Padres** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:47 am

Now, with Oregon's loss last evening, the winner of this rivalry has an excellent chance of playing for the national championship!

When Kansas beats Iowa State this Saturday and if they beat Missouri, the JayHawks will then play and must beat the likely South representative, Oklahoma, in the Big 12 title game. As the only unbeaten BCS conference team (and likely to move from #3 to #2 when they get a win over the Cyclones), Kansas, more then any college team but LSU, controls its own destiny.

But the team that likely gained the most from Oregon's loss last night was Missouri. Entering the week at #5 in the BCS and considered the 3rd best team in the Big 12 - the Tigers suddenly find themselves in a position to play for the national championship with a hell of a finish. First they can't look past Kansas State this Saturday but if they win that game and then beat Kansas, they would be playing in the Big 12 title game which would be the equivalent of a semifinal game for a shot at the national championship.

The reason this would be considered a great finish for Missouri is that with the Sooners wining their final two regular season games to qualify for the Big 12 title game Oklahoma would move up to number #2 (presuming Mizzou beats Kansas). The boys from the "Show ME" state will likely have to beat the #2 team in the nation in back-to-back weeks (again with the presumption that KU will be ranked #2, and then OU would move up if Missouri beats the Jayhawks in Kansas City). Not only that but the Tigers would have to beat a Sooner squad that they lost to earlier in the season ...)

Really it is pretty straightforward. If the winner of the Big 12 title game - be it the Tigers, the Sooners or the JayHawks - win out the rest of the way, it'll be playing for the national championship. Oklahoma has the easiest remaining schedule with just Texas Tech and Oklahoma State prior to the title game. But with my Buckeyes out of the picture now I think I'll be rooting for the hicks from Mizzou to pull off that fantastic finish. Either way, the Big 12 will be the conference to watch in college football the next few weeks!

Astros · Post by **Astros** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:10 am

Bren must have quite a view from his high horse.

I agree with you Jim, I'm rooting for Mizzou cause that'd be a heck of a deal to pull off. Kansas State is a big trap game though because they always seem to blindside a good team late in the year. They also are a very hard hitting team so Chase Daniel better have his head on a swivel

Orioles · Post by **Orioles** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:02 am

Go Mountaineers! Even though I'm a UConn fan, I'd love to see WVU absolutely crush both Cincinatti and UConn to give them a shot if the Big 12 teams somehow beat each other up.

Royals · Post by **Royals** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:31 am

Marlins wrote:Go Mountaineers! Even though I'm a UConn fan, I'd love to see WVU absolutely crush both Cincinatti and UConn to give them a shot if the Big 12 teams somehow beat each other up.

as I touched on in a conversation with Shawn, these two games are close to Win-Win scenarios for both UC and UCONN. Both have already had better seasons than they would have expected at the beginning of the season. If one of us wins our respective game, we stand very good chances at a BCS game. If not, WVU looks stronger and (hopefully) brings glory to the conference.
That said, no way am I rooting for WVU to win this weekend. UC's chances may be slim, but if they somehow pull it off, there's NO WAY I'm not going to that Bowl game.

Orioles · Post by **Orioles** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:02 pm

RedSox wrote:
Marlins wrote:Go Mountaineers! Even though I'm a UConn fan, I'd love to see WVU absolutely crush both Cincinatti and UConn to give them a shot if the Big 12 teams somehow beat each other up.
as I touched on in a conversation with Shawn, these two games are close to Win-Win scenarios for both UC and UCONN. Both have already had better seasons than they would have expected at the beginning of the season. If one of us wins our respective game, we stand very good chances at a BCS game. If not, WVU looks stronger and (hopefully) brings glory to the conference.
That said, no way am I rooting for WVU to win this weekend. UC's chances may be slim, but if they somehow pull it off, there's NO WAY I'm not going to that Bowl game.

I'd agree with that. The difference is Cincinnati could win a BCS game. UConn probably could not. I also just generally think that no matter how bad the ACC and BigTen are this year (or in any given year), the Big East will be considered #6 among the BCS conferences until one of it's teams either wins a title game, or at least puts on a good showing in a title game against a consensus #1 like LSU. So for the most part each of the last 2 seasons I've been hoping WVU (and Louisville last season) would run the table without getting tripped up in conference to earn the Big East a title shot. Both last year and this year, though, everyone keeps beating everybody else and preventing that from happening. If Dave Wannstedt was half as good at coaching as he is at recruiting (and if his team wasn't decimated by injuries) Pitt would be in the hunt annually as well. But this year alone: Pitt and UL beat Cincinnati; Cinci beat UConn and USF; UConn beat Pitt, UL and USF; USF beat WVU; Rutgers beat USF; WVU beat Rutgers. Just total insanity. That either tells us the Big East is as bad as other BCS conference supporters think, or it's actually deep and good enough that the mid-level teams are as capable of taking down the top teams as they are in other conferences.

I think the best thing BE fans can take from this year is that the conference is deeper with quality teams than ever before. Based on their bowl record from the last couple of years, combined with USF winning at Auburn, UC absolutely crushing Oregon State at home, and WVU pasting Maryland at College Park and Mississippi State in Morgantown, I think the league's second tier of teams is as good as the second tier in some of the other major conferences. What we still don't know is how the league's top team (WVU) stacks up against other top teams. My guess is that overall they're not at the level of an LSU, OU, or USC, but could they run their spread offense to perfection and upset one of those teams in one game? No reason why not. Based on what Illinois' spread offense did to OSU's vaunted defense, I think WVU would beat Ohio State pretty soundly this season.

The big difference for me between the Big East and the other major conferences is how they recruit on both the offensive and defensive line. There are enough skill position guys out there that you can get the likes of Pat Bostick, LeSean McCoy, Pat White, Steve Slaton, Noel Devine, Brian Brohm, Harry Douglas, Larry Fitzgerald, Ray Rice, Michael Bush, etc. to come to the league on offense, and guys like Darelle Revis and Mike Jenkins at defensive skill positions. However, other than the occaisional pass-rushing end (George Selvie at USF is a beast, and Amobi Okoye from UL is a good NFL player) it's pretty rare for pro-caliber DT and offensive linemen to come out of the Big East. Each year in the first 2 or 3 rounds in the draft, you see OT's and mammoth DT's from the other BCS conferences coming off the board, and that's what separates them from the Big East. There's generally no Glenn Dorsey, or Joe Thomas, or whoever in the Big East. I don't really know enough about college football recruiting to know why that is, but it seems like a major hindrance to being able to compete nationally for a title every year.

Royals · Post by **Royals** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:11 pm

Boston College used to produce some decent Offensive linemen as I recall when they were in the Big East.

This is my last year at UC, my last year in the area, so I don't care if UC goes to a BCS bowl and loses. Just the opportunity to go to any one of those Bowls and cheer for my school would be amazing.

I would love, Love, LOVE for UC to face Ohio State in a BCS game. I think I'd pee my pants. It would force all the two-faced supporters around here to pick a side of the fence. It's nauseating to see douchebag college students walking around UC's campus wearing OSU gear because it's popular.

Padres · Post by **Padres** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:28 pm

RedSox wrote: ... wearing OSU gear because it's popular.

I wear it proudly because my Dad played football there in the 1940's and I was brought up a fan of The Ohio State University. He was only a back-up center but he loved football and we would go see the Buckeyes play in Madison, Evanston and a few time at the Horseshoe.

Royals · Post by **Royals** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:26 pm

See, now that's a valid reason. "I live in Ohio" is not.... especially when you go to another university!

Padres · Post by **Padres** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:32 pm

The OSU 14 Michigan 3

... and the Buckeyes are going to the Rose Bowl. It is not the National Championship - but I am not sad.

I believe Llyod Carr (who is 1 - 6 against Jim Tressel) retires and I believe Cincy beats WVU tonight.

Royals · Post by **Royals** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:51 pm

The adoption and emphasis on THE Ohio State University has to be one of the single dumbest things in sports outside of the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim.

Padres · Post by **Padres** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:54 pm

RedSox wrote:The adoption and emphasis on THE Ohio State University has to be one of the single dumbest things in sports outside of the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim.

OSU was originally named the Ohio Agricultural and Mechanical College when it established by the Ohio General Assembly in 1870. Classes actually began at the new college in 1873. In 1878, reflecting it's expected expanded focus, the college permanently and officially changed its name to the now-familiar "The Ohio State University." The "The" was actually part of the state legislation when the university was renamed in 1878. The following excerpt is from the Board of Trustee minutes:

"...the educational institution heretofore known as the 'Ohio Agricultural and Mechanical College,' shall be known and designated hereafter as 'The Ohio State University.'"

Actually the use of "The" before Ohio State University has been applied to numerous institutions within the University for a long time, examples being:

The Ohio State University Michael E. Moritz College of Law
The Ohio State University College of Optometry
The Ohio State University Marching Band (otherwise know as TBDBITL, Ã¬The Best Damn Band in the LandÃ®)

In 1986, a new University logo was introduced in the hopes of moving away from the "OSU" symbol, which had been used since 1977. The change from simply "OSU" was said to "reflect the national stature of the institution." University officials wanted the institution to be known as "The Ohio State University," again, since OSU could also mean Oregon State or Oklahoma State University.

Sometime there after the athletic program began to follow the example of other parts of the University.

In truth though "The" has been officially part of the name for nearly 130 years and it was re-emphasised 21 years ago.

Cardinals · Post by **Cardinals** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:04 pm

Mets wrote:
RedSox wrote:The adoption and emphasis on THE Ohio State University has to be one of the single dumbest things in sports outside of the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim.

OSU was originally named the Ohio Agricultural and Mechanical College when it established by the Ohio General Assembly in 1870. Classes actually began at the new college in 1873. In 1878, reflecting it's expected expanded focus, the college permanently and officially changed its name to the now-familiar "The Ohio State University." The "The" was actually part of the state legislation when the university was renamed in 1878. The following excerpt is from the Board of Trustee minutes:

"...the educational institution heretofore known as the 'Ohio Agricultural and Mechanical College,' shall be known and designated hereafter as 'The Ohio State University.'"

Actually the use of "The" before Ohio State University has been applied to numerous institutions within the University for a long time, examples being:

The Ohio State University Michael E. Moritz College of Law
The Ohio State University College of Optometry
The Ohio State University Marching Band (otherwise know as TBDBITL, Ã¬The Best Damn Band in the LandÃ®)

In 1986, a new University logo was introduced in the hopes of moving away from the "OSU" symbol, which had been used since 1977. The change from simply "OSU" was said to "reflect the national stature of the institution." University officials wanted the institution to be known as "The Ohio State University," again, since OSU could also mean Oregon State or Oklahoma State University.

Sometime there after the athletic program began to follow the example of other parts of the University.

In truth though "The" has been officially part of the name for nearly 130 years and it was re-emphasised 21 years ago.

For the win

Orioles · Post by **Orioles** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:07 pm

POINT...BERGER!

Royals · Post by **Royals** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:18 pm

UMASS is the University of Massachusetts.
UCONN is the University of Connecticut.
UC is the University of Cincinnati.

yet you don't hear any of the students, athletes (yes, there's a difference), fans or former players saying THE University of Massachusetts... THE University of Connecticut or THE University of Cincinnati.
Why?
My guess is because they're not insecure.

Just to be completely clear, there's a difference between saying the Ohio State University and THE Ohio State University as many of the above mentioned groups of OSU affiliates do. They put more emphasis on "THE" than on any other part of the school's name, as if they're competing with some other school calling itself Ohio State University. It's that particular element of stupidity which I'm railing against.

Astros · Post by **Astros** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:00 pm

Ah of course, Bren's proven wrong about something without a shadow of a doubt and yet can't let it go and just admit he doesn't know what he's talking about

Royals · Post by **Royals** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:45 pm

How am I wrong? Ohio State's name is no different from those other schools I mentioned, yet they have this bizarre need to emphasize "The" when they talk about their team.

Giants · Post by **Giants** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:08 pm

RedSox wrote:How am I wrong? Ohio State's name is no different from those other schools I mentioned, yet they have this bizarre need to emphasize "The" when they talk about their team.

It's quite different. If you wanted to compare them appropriately you would talk about schools that had State in their names, such as

Michigan State University (which still goes by MSU despite Montana State and Missouri State)
Iowa State University (which still goes by ISU despite Indiana State and Illinois State)
Florida State University (which still goes by FSU despite Fresno State)
Similarly the University of South Carolina and University of Southern California share USC,
or how about you even make the obvious logical leap to the two schools Jim mentioned, Oregon State and Oklahoma State don't seem to mind sharing OSU.

Other examples of schools with different initials
Indiana as IU so as not to be confused with University of Illinois
Tulane as TU so as not to be confused with the University of Texas
Santa Clara as SCU so as not to be confused with USC

I mean come on it took me two minutes to come up with some rational counterexamples and I don't even agree with you.

Royals · Post by **Royals** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:36 pm

You're kidding right? Who cares if State is in their name? What does that have to do with it? Nothing! or if they have the same initials as another team? I've never heard anyone say "THE" OSU... it's "THE" Ohio State.

University of Colorado goes by CU to distinguish themselves fro the universities of California. What does that have to do with THE Ohio State? Absolutely nothing!

DBacks · Post by **DBacks** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:44 pm

i dont know what the fuck is going on...i think i might have eaten some bad chipotle or something...but i actually agree with bren. I don't care that they call themselves The Ohio State. That part makes perfect sense and I understand why they do it. However, whats stupid, and I think this is what Bren is saying, is the universal agreement they came up with to put the emphasis on "The."

If they just said The Ohio State no one would care. But since they've all decided to say it "THE" Ohio State, it really comes across as stupid. Really really fucking stupid.

Royals · Post by **Royals** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:46 pm

Cubs wrote:i dont know what the fuck is going on...i think i might have eaten some bad chipotle or something...but i actually agree with bren. I don't care that they call themselves The Ohio State. That part makes perfect sense and I understand why they do it. However, whats stupid, and I think this is what Bren is saying, is the universal agreement they came up with to put the emphasis on "The."

If they just said The Ohio State no one would care. But since they've all decided to say it "THE" Ohio State, it really comes across as stupid. Really really fucking stupid.

Thank you O Voice of Reason and Wisdom...

There's no such thing as bad Chipotle though.

Padres · Post by **Padres** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:26 pm

Mets wrote:Oklahoma would move up to number #2 (presuming Mizzou beats Kansas). The boys from the "Show ME" state will likely have to beat the #2 team in the nation in back-to-back weeks (again with the presumption that KU will be ranked #2, and then OU would move up if Missouri beats the Jayhawks in Kansas City). Not only that but the Tigers would have to beat a Sooner squad that they lost to earlier in the season ...)

At the half, however, Texas Tech is beating OU ...

Orioles · Post by **Orioles** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:39 pm

Mets wrote:At the half, however, Texas Tech is beating OU ...

I saw that. Great stuff if Texas Tech holds on. A WVU blowout here against Cinci, and next week at home vs. UConn should give them a decent shot at the BCS title game (with a little help of course).