Hall of Fame

[Yankees]

I grow more sentimental about baseball every year, yet hate the Hall of Fame more every year...and it's not even the Hall of Fame's fault!

The fact that Biggio, Bagwell, Piazza, Bonds, Clemens, and Raines all did not make it is absolutely criminal.

Also, if Jack Morris took votes away from anyone because he 'seemed' like a Hall of Famer for a few years, those voters should be electrocuted via their testicles.

[BlueJays]

Enjoy hating the HoF more each year. We're going to go through a long phase where guys who had big muscles and aren't media darlings will not get elected. Also, the BBWAA seems to think it's an insult to the top tier HoFers to allow lesser HoF worthy players to be let in the first time on the ballot... It's stupid.

However, this is a large HoF class this year, so perhaps the voters just didn't want to over-crowd the ceremony. My hope is they'll vote in Bagwell and Biggio next year together. Also, it would be kinda funny to see Piazza and Clemens go in together, but I think Clemens is going to be black listed and won't get in for quite some time, if at all.

[Mets]

It pisses me off when reporters use this privilege to make a name for themselves. These guys think they're gods this time every year. Biggio got 74.8% - C'mon. Piazza? WTF? He's never been linked to 'roids that I've seen.

[Mets]

Also - any of the 16 guys that didn't vote for Greg Maddux needs to be banned from life.

[Padres]

First of all I will state right up front that my wife, Patti, and I will definitely attend Frank Thomas appropriately going into the HOF.

Next I want to share a well written critique of the HOF voting process:

"...Let me preface the next few paragraphs with the observation that any electorate is susceptible to the following and they would be concerns, to some degree or another, with any group the Hall of Fame chose to make the selections.

First, the writers with votes feel they're entitled to them. Forever. They feel that it's a right that cannot and should not be taken away because...I don't know. They've been anointed the Guardians of Baseball or something. I'm going to get semantical here, and people can feel free to disagree with my use of these words, but it's really more of a privilege (and should be thought of in that way). The Hall of Fame could decide after this election that the BBWAA isn't the electorate anymore. The BBWAA could easily change, and has in the past changed, its criteria for which members of its association can vote. And people who abuse a privilege certainly can and should have it taken away from them, or otherwise curtailed. (That applies in large measure to rights, too.) If you suck at being a Guardian of Baseball, you're not going to have the job forever.

Second, and less formalistic, if not his vote, Gurnick is obviously entitled to his opinion. That's sort of a throwaway, irrelevant point to make. What people are complaining about is not his opinion, it's that his opinion translates to his votes. And votes for the Hall of Fame should not be abused. And I find it difficult to believe that his ballot is not an abuse of his right/privilege to vote.

The voting criteria issued by the Hall of Fame:

Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

A blanket "no" to players from an entire (ill-defined) era violates that criteria. Voting is based upon the player. An era is not on the ballot, the player is. An individual evaluation of a player is required by the Hall of Fame. ..."

http://www.southsidesox.com/2014/1/7/52 ... ame-voting

[Nationals]

At least three got in this year...

But yeah, Biggio was totally jobbed both by that absurd 10-vote limit (at least two writers wrote that they would have voted for him, had they another vote to give) and by an electorate that would give the voting population here in Texas a run for its money in sheer stupidity. The very idea that Jack Morris (whom I have some sentimentality for based on Game 7) received more votes than Bagwell, Raines, Clemens, Bonds, Schilling, Mussina, et al. is patently absurd. Thank the gods this talisman of "the good old days" will be off the ballot next year so that we can be spared the sanctimonious pricks who hold him up as the beacon of when all was right in baseball. Good fucking riddance.

[Royals]

Bonds and Clemens not getting votes is okay by me. They're douchebags and cheats. They don't belong in the Hall. They absolutely don't deserve to have anyone standing up and saying there is anything to be admired about them at an induction ceremony, just the same as A-Rod won't deserve it after he retires. It's because of ratbags like them Mcgwire and Sosa that so many other players live under a shadow come HOF time.

[Giants]

McGwire and Sosa were the ones called before Congress. The first public steroid whispers on McGwire had started all the way back during the home run chase, Barry Bonds didn't start going to BALCO until 2000, and he wasn't publicly tied to it (or any other steroid accusation as far as I can tell) until 2003. Mark McGwire's Hall chances ended as soon as "I'm not here to talk about the past" crossed his lips. Let's not pretend that if Bonds and Clemens had been nicer to the media that the sanctimonious Jack Morris voters would be lining up the induct the juicers.

[Royals]

McGwire and Sosa were the ones called before Congress. The first public steroid whispers on McGwire had started all the way back during the home run chase, Barry Bonds didn't start going to BALCO until 2000, and he wasn't publicly tied to it (or any other steroid accusation as far as I can tell) until 2003. Mark McGwire's Hall chances ended as soon as "I'm not here to talk about the past" crossed his lips. Let's not pretend that if Bonds and Clemens had been nicer to the media that the sanctimonious Jack Morris voters would be lining up the induct the juicers.

Sosa and McGwire both licked the media's jocks, front to back. Bagwell was no dickbag to the media. They're all on the outside looking in.
You've always been a Bonds apologist. He's on the outside looking in because he was a cheating sonuvabitch who tainted every player in the game. Ditto Clemens. They could have kissed ass all day long their entire careers and they'd still be right where they belong, which is OUT of the Hall of Fame.

[BlueJays]

McGwire and Sosa were the ones called before Congress. The first public steroid whispers on McGwire had started all the way back during the home run chase, Barry Bonds didn't start going to BALCO until 2000, and he wasn't publicly tied to it (or any other steroid accusation as far as I can tell) until 2003. Mark McGwire's Hall chances ended as soon as "I'm not here to talk about the past" crossed his lips. Let's not pretend that if Bonds and Clemens had been nicer to the media that the sanctimonious Jack Morris voters would be lining up the induct the juicers.

Sosa and McGwire both licked the media's jocks, front to back. Bagwell was no dickbag to the media. They're all on the outside looking in.
You've always been a Bonds apologist. He's on the outside looking in because he was a cheating sonuvabitch who tainted every player in the game. Ditto Clemens. They could have kissed ass all day long their entire careers and they'd still be right where they belong, which is OUT of the Hall of Fame.

Yet I expect David Ortiz, who has very strong connections to PEDs, will be a shoe-in for the HoF because the media just loves him (and he has some pretty damn impressive numbers in season and post-season).

I think part of the hatred the media has for these guys is because they're ashamed that they chose to look away when a lot of these guys were using PEDs and now it's been blowing up in baseball's face for the past 10 years. These guys know that they contributed to the problem and out of frustration are taking it out on the entire generation, even if some of the strong guys they're punishing likely never used PEDs.

[Royals]

McGwire and Sosa were the ones called before Congress. The first public steroid whispers on McGwire had started all the way back during the home run chase, Barry Bonds didn't start going to BALCO until 2000, and he wasn't publicly tied to it (or any other steroid accusation as far as I can tell) until 2003. Mark McGwire's Hall chances ended as soon as "I'm not here to talk about the past" crossed his lips. Let's not pretend that if Bonds and Clemens had been nicer to the media that the sanctimonious Jack Morris voters would be lining up the induct the juicers.

Sosa and McGwire both licked the media's jocks, front to back. Bagwell was no dickbag to the media. They're all on the outside looking in.
You've always been a Bonds apologist. He's on the outside looking in because he was a cheating sonuvabitch who tainted every player in the game. Ditto Clemens. They could have kissed ass all day long their entire careers and they'd still be right where they belong, which is OUT of the Hall of Fame.

Yet I expect David Ortiz, who has very strong connections to PEDs, will be a shoe-in for the HoF because the media just loves him (and he has some pretty damn impressive numbers in season and post-season).

I think part of the hatred the media has for these guys is because they're ashamed that they chose to look away when a lot of these guys were using PEDs and now it's been blowing up in baseball's face for the past 10 years. These guys know that they contributed to the problem and out of frustration are taking it out on the entire generation, even if some of the strong guys they're punishing likely never used PEDs.

I disagree. Ortiz has two things going against him. One is PED's, the other is that he has always been a full-time DH. The latter is unfair. Keeping him out for PED's I have no problem with. David Ortiz doesn't belong in the Hall.

[Brewers]

I have a hard time moralizing any of these guys. I have done far more harmful drugs for much worse reasons than millions of dollars so who am I to judge? Weirdly, I have no problem with Sosa, Bonds, Clemens, McGwire and Palmiero being shut out but think that its unfair that Bagwell and Piazza get black listed. Maybe its the line between guys we think did them and guys we know did them. Maybe its the drugs.

Pettite will be an interesting case all around.

[BlueJays]

I suppose you could be right, it depends how these last few years of his career go since his career WAR is lower than I thought it was (just over 40). I don't think PEDs will be the reason he fails to make it (if he fails to make it).

Then again, by the time Ortiz reaches the ballot, the electorate is going to be very different than it is today.

[Brewers]

Bill James had a great take on this issue on the MLB Network last night. Steroids will continue to become more and more ubiquitous and the old guard of moralists will die out and the next generation will not have such a big problem with this era.

Greenies are bad but Red Bull is good. HGH is bad but Platelet Rich Injections are good. Weed is bad but alcohol is good. Paying for sex is bad but paying for dinner and a movie in hopes of sex is good. Watching your own children sleep is endearing but watching your neighbor's children sleep is creepy. Being a human is confusing.

[BlueJays]

Please tell me you don't watch your neighbor's kids sleep.

[Brewers]

That was just the punchline.

Besides, my neighbors kids are all grown.

[BlueJays]

Would still be creepy.

[Guardians]

That was just the punchline.

Besides, my neighbors kids are all grown.

Wait, so you used to watch your neighbor's kids sleep? Weirdo...

[Athletics]

I would just be looking at the steroid era guys and say "What other stats do you have besides the increased power, whether it be home run blasting or fastball zip"

Sammy Sosa - Home run guy, nothing more.

Mark Mcgwire - Home run guy, nothing more.

Barry Bonds - Home run, but he also was likely going to be a 400/400 guy without them, can could have potentially gotten to 3000 hits and 2000 rbis, not to mention some gold gloves.

Roger Clemens - Power Pitcher, but he also had 3 CYs early in his career, likely would have reached 300 Wins regardless, might not have gotten over 4000 Ks....but still likely to be 4th on the career list.

So Bonds and Roger in, Mark and Sammy out.

As for David Ortiz being a DH, he is likely in the same boat as Edgar.

[Giants]

The difference between Bonds and these guys is that with Bonds everyone agrees there was a clearly defined *before*, its hard to say when or even if the others were ever clean. I'm with Bill James, let them all in and I believe that in my children's lifetimes if not mine every athlete will be on doctor supervised PEDs.

However, my favorite wrinkle in this story is that if you are for keeping the PED guys out you REALLY have to be for keeping Pete Rose out, this whole thing is his fault!
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/ ... oids&num=2

[Tigers]

I just don't know how anyone can look at any athlete from the past 25 years and claim with a confident amount of certainty that they didn't use some form of performance enhancing drug. We lived through the steriod/PED era. It is what it is.

That said, do we really know with any certainty that athletes from the past eras were not using other forms of performance enhancing drugs or concoctions? Shit, the Chinese and Russian athletes have been using performance enhancing drugs since the dark ages. Who really knows what kind of drugs were around or available to athletes 40 years ago here in the states.

From a historical context, these players we are talking about were the greatest players of their era. There should be a place in the HOF for them.

[BlueJays]

I just don't know how anyone can look at any athlete from the past 25 years and claim with a confident amount of certainty that they didn't use some form of performance enhancing drug. We lived through the steriod/PED era. It is what it is.

That said, do we really know with any certainty that athletes from the past eras were not using other forms of performance enhancing drugs or concoctions? Shit, the Chinese and Russian athletes have been using performance enhancing drugs since the dark ages. Who really knows what kind of drugs were around or available to athletes 40 years ago here in the states.

From a historical context, these players we are talking about were the greatest players of their era. There should be a place in the HOF for them.

I agree, though it is a complicated subject. I can just about guarantee you that there is one or more players in the HoF today that have used steroids, so it doesn't make sense to punish a whole generation based on hunches, or even punish those who admitted to wrong doing, when there are those who successfully kept it a secret and were enshrined.

But what about the players who knowingly broke the rules and are completely unapologetic for it (ARod)? Or even those who just broke the rules but are more PR savy that they can come off as likeable in the end (Pettitte)?

The fact is a lot of these substances were not banned when these guys were playing. A lot of them weren't even illegal in the US at the time. It's becoming even more complex, because we thought we finally had rules properly constructed and a testing program too rubust to violate without being caught, but now we're finding that it's possible to occasionally use a new form of PED that spikes your testosterone for a short period of time and you won't get caught as long as you aren't tested that day. So we can still have guys go a whole career without being caught that did use PEDs.

Baseball is a different game than it was through the 90's. A lot of guys only focused on bulking up back then, because home runs paid the bills. Now guys are focusing on staying off the DL, and maintaining speed and improving fast-twitch muscles through use of PEDs. Maybe some guys did that back in the 90's as well though? A lot of guys testing positive now prove that the stereotype that it's just the bulked up guys that are "juicing".

So all I can say is I don't have the answer, but demonizing players that were never caught just because they fit a stereotype is certainly not the answer.

[Royals]

There was a clear 'before' with Bonds. Before BALCO. That doesn't mean before he started juicing though. Look at ARod, there are reports he was using PEDs starting in HS. PEDs don't just make you massive, they're a shortcut so it takes less time to build muscle or recover. McGwire (and Canseco) juiced almost their whole careers. Given his complete lack of any display of integrity whatsoever, I see no strong reason to buy any claim of "well he was clean before", because how do you know? You don't. All you have really is someone's word and Bonds' word is worth less than Pete Rose's.
Second, what would Bonds have done if he hadn't gone to BALCO? Who knows, but we don't put players in the hall based on what they COULD have done. They go in based on what they did and Bonds filthied up the game and its most hallowed records.

[Giants]

First of all, that's a fallacious argument, it's logically impossible to prove a negative, so of course one can't say for sure that Bonds or anyone didn't use PEDs before a certain date (for instance, Bren, prove to us you have never molested a child).

What I was saying is that there is a general consensus even among the most ardent Jack Morris voter that there was a before with Barry Bonds, in fact Game of Shadows pegs the date at 2000 (and names Ken Griffey as the witness to this fact). If you want to argue that Bonds started using during his Serra high school days that's lonely company, but no one can provide you proof positive that you're wrong. Let's ignore that Bonds was in high school from 1979-1982 and A-Rod was in high school from 1990-1993.

Is Bonds' word really worth less than Pete Rose's? Maybe but so what? I'd probably take Richard Nixon's word over Gordon Liddy's, but I'm not making any decisions relying primarily on either.

[Royals]

First of all, that's a fallacious argument, it's logically impossible to prove a negative, so of course one can't say for sure that Bonds or anyone didn't use PEDs before a certain date (for instance, Bren, prove to us you have never molested a child).

What I was saying is that there is a general consensus even among the most ardent Jack Morris voter that there was a before with Barry Bonds, in fact Game of Shadows pegs the date at 2000 (and names Ken Griffey as the witness to this fact). If you want to argue that Bonds started using during his Serra high school days that's lonely company, but no one can provide you proof positive that you're wrong. Let's ignore that Bonds was in high school from 1979-1982 and A-Rod was in high school from 1990-1993.

Is Bonds' word really worth less than Pete Rose's? Maybe but so what? I'd probably take Richard Nixon's word over Gordon Liddy's, but I'm not making any decisions relying primarily on either.

If a child molester tells you they never molested children before 2000, do you take them at their word? No, because they've proven themselves to be untrustworthy.
Bonds cheated. Period. And when he was caught, he lied, lied, lied to try to cover it up. He's a piece of shit who has no place in the Hall and the only reason you're arguing otherwise is because you're a homer, just like how you buried your head in the sand all those years trying to claim he wasn't juicing.