Cano to M's 10yr/240mil?

BlueJays · Post by **BlueJays** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:33 am

ESPN reporting it's a done deal.

Another 30+ yr old signs a mega contract... when will they learn?

Mariners · Post by **Mariners** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:11 pm

I know I'll be hatin' this in a few years, but I'm gonna enjoy the ride for now.

Astros · Post by **Astros** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:23 pm

No short porch, this has disaster written all over it

Tigers · Post by **Tigers** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:26 pm

DBacks wrote:I know I'll be hatin' this in a few years, but I'm gonna enjoy the ride for now.

+1

Royals · Post by **Royals** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:36 pm

Hilarious. Cano is obviously SOLELY abut the money, because the M's are along way from being able to support him in the lineup. Meanwhile, this is quite the blow to the Yanks who had to have been thinking that there was no way he would actually sign elsewhere.

BlueJays · Post by **BlueJays** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:40 pm

Padres wrote:Hilarious. Cano is obviously SOLELY abut the money, because the M's are along way from being able to support him in the lineup. Meanwhile, this is quite the blow to the Yanks who had to have been thinking that there was no way he would actually sign elsewhere.

Just about everybody in baseball is solely about the money, don't fool yourself.

Albert Pujols claimed he went to the Angels for "respect" and to have a better shot at winning. In 2 years he has yet to be in the playoffs while his former team won a pennant and a division series. They're all full of shit. I would have had much more respect for Albert had he just said "I signed with the Angels because they offered the most money". I have no problem with players going for the money. We all do it to some degree. Just don't insult our intelligence by claiming it wasn't about the money.

Athletics · Post by **Athletics** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:20 pm

If you read the breakdowns it isn't nearly as bad people think it could be, obviously it is alot like the Pujols contract, but he plays a more valuable position (hasn't shown an injury history, though neither did Albert...but some still think he is 2-3 years than reported), Seattle still has more money they could spend this year to surround both him and King Felix...so in reality, if they make the playoffs and make a few smart moves...versus getting 4 more DHs that might be able to play in the field, they could be in that 85-90 win range.

Mets · Post by **Mets** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:22 pm

Good for Seattle. Nice job stepping up. The Mets overpayed Pedro to get Beltran. The Nats over payed Werth to get "anybody". The M's are paying Cano more to get other players to entertain a 6 hour flight to all of the other ballparks. Just hope it's not Sexson / Beltre results.

BlueJays · Post by **BlueJays** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:45 pm

Mets wrote:Good for Seattle. Nice job stepping up. The Mets overpayed Pedro to get Beltran. The Nats over payed Werth to get "anybody". The M's are paying Cano more to get other players to entertain a 6 hour flight to all of the other ballparks. Just hope it's not Sexson / Beltre results.

2013: Mets (74-88 ); Nats (86-76)
Both fail to reach playoffs
The Mets are a disaster. The Nats should be back into the playoffs shortly, but not because of Werth. It'll be because of the talent they developed through the draft and guys they got through trading talent they developed.

The best way for the M's to become competitive? Restructure their system for developing talent. Why is it they can have big time prospects (Ackley, Franklin, Saunders, Smoak... yes, I know I have 2 of those guys), but they can't convert them to MLBers, yet the Cardinals can turn no-name prospects like Matt Carpenter, Allen Craig, Jon Jay and Matt Adams into decent every day MLBers? I'm starting to really believe that some teams just do a better job at creating MLBers than other teams (M's can't develop hitters, O's can't develop pitchers; some systems just suck at 1 or the other)

Go pay a ton of money to some key front office member from a team like the Rays, Cardinals or Rangers and let them rebuild your system. The Astros did it, and that's why I think they'll win an ALW crown before the M's do.

Guardians · Post by **Guardians** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:57 pm

Orioles wrote:
Mets wrote:Good for Seattle. Nice job stepping up. The Mets overpayed Pedro to get Beltran. The Nats over payed Werth to get "anybody". The M's are paying Cano more to get other players to entertain a 6 hour flight to all of the other ballparks. Just hope it's not Sexson / Beltre results.
2013: Mets (74-88 ); Nats (86-76)
Both fail to reach playoffs
The Mets are a disaster. The Nats should be back into the playoffs shortly, but not because of Werth. It'll be because of the talent they developed through the draft and guys they got through trading talent they developed.

The best way for the M's to become competitive? Restructure their system for developing talent. Why is it they can have big time prospects (Ackley, Franklin, Saunders, Smoak... yes, I know I have 2 of those guys), but they can't convert them to MLBers, yet the Cardinals can turn no-name prospects like Matt Carpenter, Allen Craig, Jon Jay and Matt Adams into decent every day MLBers? I'm starting to really believe that some teams just do a better job at creating MLBers than other teams (M's can't develop hitters, O's can't develop pitchers; some systems just suck at 1 or the other)

Go pay a ton of money to some key front office member from a team like the Rays, Cardinals or Rangers and let them rebuild your system. The Astros did it, and that's why I think they'll win an ALW crown before the M's do.

I think John was referring to past expenditures. Beltran/Pedro and Werth were years ago, not last year. The point is that no one wants to go to Seattle. But with Cano there, they have a short window to attract big players. They have been flush with cash for years, but never spent. Now they have money, a stocked farm system and a big name player. Good for them. This contract will suck over the long-term, but they couldn't keep wasting King Felix's potential waiting on prospects to make it or a system/people in place to "turn" prospects into stars. If they bring in Cano, deal Franklin, maybe Walker for Price and bring in a few more studs, this team can compete. Maybe that's why Billy Beane has gone all crazy with 2014-centered players..he knew it was coming. The AL West may be fun to watch this year. A side benefit was ripping away the Yankees only superstar by one of their most famous fans. Love it.

BlueJays · Post by **BlueJays** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:15 pm

I still don't think it's a model for success. Perhaps they would have had better luck with that Justin Upton trade they had set up last year by having somebody like Cano there, but I still think guys don't want to go there because they know that's where bats go to die... and I still say that's a product of them not being able to develop hitters. Sure, it's a large park (tho last year they brought the fences in a bit), but that shouldn't cause guys to forget which end of the bat to hold on to.

Teams that feel like they're on the brink of success but can't get over the hump tend to make stupid moves. The Royals traded away one of the best prospects in baseball for a mid-rotation starter (woohoo! they finished above .500!). The Angels blew their load two years in a row over 30-somethings that were on the down hill slope of their career. Perhaps these teams should look at why they can't get over that hump rather than panic and make bad moves. The Pirates and Rays are both great examples of teams that struggled but got over the hump by relying on a robust system of developing talent.

Royals · Post by **Royals** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:23 pm

Orioles wrote:I'm starting to really believe that some teams just do a better job at creating MLBers than other teams (M's can't develop hitters, O's can't develop pitchers; some systems just suck at 1 or the other)

Absolutely true, that's one of the reasons I'm not grafting Gray.

Building through the farm is tough. yes, the Pirates are finally a good team, but to some extent it's one of those "Well it had to happen eventually" things. The Rays have been good, but still haven't won a title. For those two teams, getting to the playoffs is enough. For the Mariners, that's not enough any more. They're not a small market team like Pitt or TB, they have big money owners in a big city. They need a splash to attract players AND to satiate fans.

Yankees · Post by **Yankees** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:27 pm

Steve, I think what they're trying to say is that you don't have to do one or the other. Isn't signing Cano better than the trades you outlined? They didn't trade Cano, all they did was give up a pick for him.

Athletics · Post by **Athletics** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:19 pm

Yea...they didn't trade away a cost controlled elite prospect for a two year rental...neither was that the case for the Angels and Prince Albert...if you want to talk about the Angels making some of those bad choices it would be the one year rental of Grienke or Haren that cost them Segura, Skaggs, Corbin, etc.

BlueJays · Post by **BlueJays** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:46 pm

The Angels gave up $240 million and Michael Wacha to have the empty shell of Albert Pujols. "Just a pick" is "just a pick" to incompetent teams.

Guardians · Post by **Guardians** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:08 pm

Orioles wrote:The Angels gave up $240 million and Michael Wacha to have the empty shell of Albert Pujols. "Just a pick" is "just a pick" to incompetent teams.

We get it. You have a boner for the Cardinals. And, yes, the optimal way of building a team is through prospects and shrewd signings. But not every team has the talent to pull it off. When you don't, you don't wait 10 years hoping that you hired the right Harvard nerds in your front office. You sign superstars to attract fans and other free agents and don't worry that someone might get lucky with a pick. That's what the Mariners have done and if they make a few smart signings, they could be a good team that their fans want to watch.

BlueJays · Post by **BlueJays** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:45 am

Tigers wrote:
Orioles wrote:The Angels gave up $240 million and Michael Wacha to have the empty shell of Albert Pujols. "Just a pick" is "just a pick" to incompetent teams.
We get it. You have a boner for the Cardinals. And, yes, the optimal way of building a team is through prospects and shrewd signings. But not every team has the talent to pull it off. When you don't, you don't wait 10 years hoping that you hired the right Harvard nerds in your front office. You sign superstars to attract fans and other free agents and don't worry that someone might get lucky with a pick. That's what the Mariners have done and if they make a few smart signings, they could be a good team that their fans want to watch.

Name a time when a player past 30 years old signed a deal for 7 or more years and it worked out.

Yankees · Post by **Yankees** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:11 am

"Worked out" is an insanely loose phrase. Another phrase is "flags fly forever" or "revenue is king". The Yankees, in just ticket sales, generate an additional about $100 million more per year that they are in the playoffs. By making the playoffs, they generate an additional $60 million through the ALCS, and another $25 million if they make the World Series.

That's just attendance...that doesn't include sponsorship contracts, concessions generated from more fans, parking, merchandise, and, for the Yankees, associated revenue for the TV station. And that's just simple look at the overall organization value of being better.

You keep speaking about things in absolutes, but that's not how the world works. Since the Nats made that splash with Werth, they have done a great job of signings, trades, and player development that has built a pretty damn good roster. To expect them not to content based off last season would be insanely short-sighted.

Cano is probably an underpay for the first 4 years of his contract, an ok pay for 2, and probably an overpay for 4. But what's the value of a bat like Cano helping take pressure off some of the younger players to allow them to develop? What's the value of selling Cano coming to the younger players to make them sign long-term contracts because of the commitment of the team? What's the value of selling Cano to other free agents to get them to see Seattle as a viable option? What's the value of this giving Jack Z. the fortitude to cash in some of their insanely deep farm system for more now players?

Here's the answer: Who the hell knows?!?! The reality is that far smarter people with far more knowledge of the on- and off-field implications of a signing like this are doing these deals. We have every right to Cowherd-style bash the contract, and maybe it doesn't work. As a Yankee fan, this blows...but I give the Mariners credit for making a very big move with the best available player. This organization has been a sleeping giant for a while, and if it awakens the beast, it's absolutely a good contract...even if he sucks in 2023.

BlueJays · Post by **BlueJays** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:36 am

Ah yes, flags fly forever, so that's why short-sighted contracts are ok, right? Pretty similar mind set as to trading the farm for a couple year run. Let's ask the Brewers how that went with giving away everybody they had for Shaun Marcum and Zach Greinke and then giving Braun a massive contract. So many flags left from that run...

Let's look at the past 10 World Series Champs: Red Sox(x3), Giants(x2), Cardinals(x2), Yankees, Phillies, White Sox
Aside from the White Sox, every team there are perennial winners. The Yankees can afford stupid contracts (to a degree, now look at their roster, is McCann really their youngest player???).
I have a feeling the M's will agree to take on all of Kemp's salary, and then they'll give the Rays anything they want to bring in Price, and people will hail them for showing "such a willingness to win", and maybe they'll see a couple years of success, but then in a couple years they'll spiral to the ALW basement until they can work up the resources and money to try it again.

But, I guess it works for the Marlins, they have a couple flags!

Yankees · Post by **Yankees** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:25 am

Please continue to ignore the economics of being a contending team.

BlueJays · Post by **BlueJays** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:32 am

Where am I ignoring that? Contending for a couple years << contending every year

Yankees · Post by **Yankees** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:00 pm

You lose a TON of money as a non-contender...and for however long you don't contend causes skepticism when you do. Each team attempts to accelerate the process because of the financial implications. Rebuilding here is easy because it doesn't cost anything. For an MLB team, every year of not contending is tens of millions of dollars of loss. I don't care how rich some owners are, that shit stings.

BlueJays · Post by **BlueJays** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:10 pm

Anymore it comes down to the TV contracts. Money at the concessions and ticket sales are just icing on the cake. Why do you think the Astros can get away with running a AA team out there every day?

Also there's revenue sharing. How do you think the Pirates have been turning a profit each year for quite some time now?

Winning = profit is not the story in MLB any more. Terrible teams are sometimes the most profitable

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexande ... n-history/

The teams that lose money are the teams that don't win, aren't in a huge market, and have stupid contracts holding them down...

Cardinals · Post by **Cardinals** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:27 pm

Tough to say if this is a good move or a dumb move right away. It depends on what else the Mariners do this offseason. The back half of the contract is absolutely going to suck, but they have to do something to try to win while Felix is in his prime. If this is their only big move of the offseason, then it's a really, really poor move because they're still not going to be good enough to make actual noise. They've already forfeited their first rounder, might as well keep buying players and just go for it in the next 2-3 years. Wonder if they go and trade for David Price now.

BlueJays · Post by **BlueJays** » Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:21 am

Former members of the M's organization starting to speak out about how stupid and dysfunctional their front office is:

One of those speaking out is Blengino, the former No. 2 in Zduriencik’s front office. Blengino, who was working for the Milwaukee Brewers with Zduriencik at the time, said he authored virtually the entire job application package Zduriencik gave the Mariners in 2008, depicting a dual-threat candidate melding traditional scouting with advanced statistical analysis.

Blengino said he prepared the package because he was versed in the hot trend of using advanced stats for team decisions.

“Jack portrayed himself as a scouting/stats hybrid because that’s what he needed to get the job,” Blengino said. “But Jack never has understood one iota about statistical analysis. To this day, he evaluates hitters by homers, RBI and batting average and pitchers by wins and ERA. Statistical analysis was foreign to him. But he knew he needed it to get in the door.”

The Seattle Times obtained a copy of the package, which talks of rebuilding with minimal pain through shrewd drafts, undervalued free agents and a “vast pipeline of young, homegrown star-caliber talent.” Advanced stats charts ranked every major-leaguer and top minor-leaguers, while computer spreadsheets depicted each team’s positional depth and payroll commitments.

http://seattletimes.com/html/mariners/2 ... 08xml.html