...is a discussion we can finally remove Peyton Manning from. That feels pretty good. I actually spent Super Bowl week watching highlights from the 49ers big run in the 80's to familiarize myself more with what made Joe Montana so great, and one thing we know about Joe Montana is that he would never throw a pick 6 inside of 5 minutes to lose the game while driving for a game tying touchdown.
For those wondering when the Colts actually lost the game, it was when Peyton Manning threw his towel after Matt Stover missed the 51 yarder (really, why were they trying a 51 yard field goal with a 42 year old kicker? Once your kicker hits 35 he shouldn't be kicking field goals 9 yards longer than his age), and the original Manning Face made it's first appearance of 2010.
But most importantly, congratulations to Drew Brees and the Saints. New Orleans touched my life in a very deep but very brief way (for those of you who don't know I was at Tulane for a year before I joined the SaberCats), and this game left me completely speechless and emotional, so I can only imagine what it must have meant to everyone down in the Bayou.
The Greatest Quarterback of All Time
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The Greatest Quarterback of All Time
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one thing we know about Joe Montana is that he would never throw a pick 6 inside of 5 minutes to lose the game while driving for a game tying touchdown
These kinds of statements are pure BS. I think that my biggest pet peeve in sports is the sweeping, way, way too presumptuous declarations. Steve Young cannot win a super bowl because he can't do what Joe Montanta can do. Troy Aikman will never win a super bowl because he can't do what Roger Staubach will do. Peyton Manning will never win a super bowl. Eli Manning is one of the worst QBs in the league. Alex Rodriguez isn't a winner and will never be on a WS team. Bart Starr is better than Dan Marino because he won it. Terry Bradshaw is better than Brett Favre because he won four. A super bowl QB would never make that throw that __ just made. Kevin Garnett will never win a championship because he's too passive.For those wondering when the Colts actually lost the game, it was when Peyton Manning threw his towel after Matt Stover missed the 51 yarder
The second is just insane.
Anyway, I would not disagree that Manning is not and should never be considered the best QB of all time, and Joe Montana may well be, but I don't understand why we have to indulge ourselves in hyperbole like this just because we don't like a guy his team or we think someone else overrates him, particularly compared with someone we think is underrated. Montana made bad throws and did not will his team to win every big game. That is true of every QB who has ever played. They're human, even the one various people may idolize, and they're playing a position where enough degree of difficulty makes any of them imperfect, even in the most important moments.
Thanks BP. I'm too angry to make a rational arguement right now so I won't try, maybe tomorrow when I simmer down, but lemme throw out a Hamlin arguement here.
There is no way you can consider Joe Montana the greatest QB of all time. Would _________ have came out of the 1990 NFC title game just because Leonard Marshall hit him hard? No because they're tough and Montana's a pussy that missed a lot of games throughout his career because he couldn't take punishment like a real QB, so you can't say he's the best ever
There is no way you can consider Joe Montana the greatest QB of all time. Would _________ have came out of the 1990 NFC title game just because Leonard Marshall hit him hard? No because they're tough and Montana's a pussy that missed a lot of games throughout his career because he couldn't take punishment like a real QB, so you can't say he's the best ever
Yea I'd have to agree that Peyton's not on that list right now. 9-9 Postseason record isn't anything to be proud of. Also the NFL Network brought up an interesting point in that the Colts have used around 9 1st Rd Picks on offensive skill position players since he's been there to ensure he's always had the best talent around him. While other great QBs have had to make due with less.
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As much as I hate Manning, he's still one of the All-Time greats. Once you get to that level of top 5, or even top 10 it all just depends on what you're looking for in your quarterback and your qualifications as best of all time. Is it rings? Then ok, exclude Manning. Is it single season accomplishments or career stats? Exclude Bradshaw.
Even to say that the game was lost when Peyton threw the towel is just taking credit away from all the other actual plays in the game. The onside kick. Hell, even the interception obviously has more weight than a gesture like that.
I guess my point is basically once you've established your greatness in the upper echelons of the league, it's all personal preference. Some people (myself included) are going to say Brady is quite possibly the best quarter back of all time. 3 Super Bowls, 2 SB MVPs, 1 MVP, 50 TDs in a year. I could go on and on. If you want to tell me Elway is better based on _________ I'll think you're wrong, but I'll see where you're coming from. I've come to learn that arguments of best of whatever of all time are silly because there's no easy way to quantify these things and it just comes down to who you like and what statistics you value.
Even to say that the game was lost when Peyton threw the towel is just taking credit away from all the other actual plays in the game. The onside kick. Hell, even the interception obviously has more weight than a gesture like that.
I guess my point is basically once you've established your greatness in the upper echelons of the league, it's all personal preference. Some people (myself included) are going to say Brady is quite possibly the best quarter back of all time. 3 Super Bowls, 2 SB MVPs, 1 MVP, 50 TDs in a year. I could go on and on. If you want to tell me Elway is better based on _________ I'll think you're wrong, but I'll see where you're coming from. I've come to learn that arguments of best of whatever of all time are silly because there's no easy way to quantify these things and it just comes down to who you like and what statistics you value.
12, 14, 15, 17, 22
Peyton is certainly up there with the best of the best and only the most homerific of fans would argue him for best of all time. I have my own opinions on best of all time, and while there is certainly an element of homerism there (and I can admit when I'm biased, unlike some people I can think of) there's also a hefty pile of records and trophies (personal and team) backing that up.
I think Jake's point about the towel is that Peyton lost his cool. That at that moment Peyton may have felt like the game was slipping or had already slipped away and that's a disastrous thing for a QB in a big game. If Peyton didn't lose his cool, maybe he doesn't throw that pick, maybe he does anyhow. All I know is that in that moment I thought of the Peyton Manning I had come to know and love, whose favorite receiver was Ty Law.
Not to go off on a tangent, but I'm going to seize on something Aaron said for a moment, which is his commentary about durability in his second paragraph. Simply put, it's the most overrated, biggest sack of bullshit out there. One, questioning the desire to win and get back out on the field of someone like Montana is absurd. If he says he con't go back in, there should be no question about it. The durability records held by guys like Favre and Ripken are pure crap. All it means is that they went out there on days when they shouldn't have. When their body wasn't prepared to handle it but they did it anyways for the sake of the record and their ego instead of taking a day or a week off for the sake of the team. End Tangent.
I think Jake's point about the towel is that Peyton lost his cool. That at that moment Peyton may have felt like the game was slipping or had already slipped away and that's a disastrous thing for a QB in a big game. If Peyton didn't lose his cool, maybe he doesn't throw that pick, maybe he does anyhow. All I know is that in that moment I thought of the Peyton Manning I had come to know and love, whose favorite receiver was Ty Law.
Not to go off on a tangent, but I'm going to seize on something Aaron said for a moment, which is his commentary about durability in his second paragraph. Simply put, it's the most overrated, biggest sack of bullshit out there. One, questioning the desire to win and get back out on the field of someone like Montana is absurd. If he says he con't go back in, there should be no question about it. The durability records held by guys like Favre and Ripken are pure crap. All it means is that they went out there on days when they shouldn't have. When their body wasn't prepared to handle it but they did it anyways for the sake of the record and their ego instead of taking a day or a week off for the sake of the team. End Tangent.
I think the point I was trying to make didn't come across clear, and that's my fault for posting 5 minutes before I fell asleep and full of anger. So the fact that Peyton threw an INT disqualifies him from Greatest QB of All Time discussion? So then you can't include Brady obviously, not after his terrible game this year, or ending the 06 AFC title game with an INT to Marlon Jackson on the Pats last drive. Can't have Elway, after all, he lost 3 Super Bowls. Montana? Well he had that bad playoff game against the Vikings in the late 80s where he got pulled for Steve Young. Favre's cost his team more playoff games than Marty Schottenheimer. Unitas had a bad Super Bowl III and wasn't doing good in V before he got hurt. See the point? You can nitpick and exclude anyone from Greatest of all Time discussions. Why don't we wait until careers are over for that? Peyton still has 5 years left and I bet Brady has 5 or 6 barring another major leg injury.
While we're at it, you know what made Montana great? He played for one of the greatest all around teams ever in an era where there wasn't a salary cap. Different eras, you can't compare the deadball era pitchers or hitters to the players of today, you can't compare players pre-cap to cap era players because those juggernaut teams wouldn't have existed
While we're at it, you know what made Montana great? He played for one of the greatest all around teams ever in an era where there wasn't a salary cap. Different eras, you can't compare the deadball era pitchers or hitters to the players of today, you can't compare players pre-cap to cap era players because those juggernaut teams wouldn't have existed
Obviously I was a little excited and a lot inebriated when I made that post yesterday, and I was really surprised to see Bren Dillon of all people explain the salient point in my comment about when the Colts lost the game.
One of the big knocks on Peyton Manning is that he holds everyone around him to the same exacting standards he holds for himself. Now that's not a terrible thing, but it becomes a terrible thing when he can't handle it that not everyone is Peyton Manning. Throughout his career (you can find enough clips like this one on YouTube to prove my point), he'd blow up at teammates on the sideline for their mistakes and lose his cool when things went wrong. When things are going right he's perhaps the most talented and smartest quarterback ever, but when he loses his cool he also loses his precision. The kind of offense the Colts run requires immense precision from the quarterback, there are maybe 10 quarterbacks who've ever played who could even run the offense effectively, and he's gotta be sharp. When he's sharp they're unstoppable (think the touchdown drive at the end of the first half against the Jets, or even that pass he threw to Dallas Clark in the third quarter), but when he's not sharp his mistakes get magnified because the system only works if he's sharp. Once we saw him quite literally throw in the towel I knew he'd lost his cool and his level of sharpness was gone. I'm trying to think of another elite level quarterback who lost his cool on the sideline that dramatically in that big of a game.
The only way to beat him Peyton Manning is to get him to make the wrong read pre-snap. He's incredible at seeing what the defense is throwing at him and then making adjustments, and this year he's been better than ever at figuring the defenses out and finding the holes in them (once again, like he did to the Jets). On the interception the Saints had a really simple coverage disguise (switching the corners) that Manning typically spots, but this time he didn't, I believe because he'd lost his cool and was playing on tilt.
I guess what I was trying to say is that Peyton Manning's temper is his Achilles heel, like Brett Favre's Achilles heel is that cowboy/gunslinger mentality that leads to some stupid throws. He'd done a really incredible job this year of looking like he'd overcome it, but it reared it's head during that missed field goal and that was the end of the game.
One of the big knocks on Peyton Manning is that he holds everyone around him to the same exacting standards he holds for himself. Now that's not a terrible thing, but it becomes a terrible thing when he can't handle it that not everyone is Peyton Manning. Throughout his career (you can find enough clips like this one on YouTube to prove my point), he'd blow up at teammates on the sideline for their mistakes and lose his cool when things went wrong. When things are going right he's perhaps the most talented and smartest quarterback ever, but when he loses his cool he also loses his precision. The kind of offense the Colts run requires immense precision from the quarterback, there are maybe 10 quarterbacks who've ever played who could even run the offense effectively, and he's gotta be sharp. When he's sharp they're unstoppable (think the touchdown drive at the end of the first half against the Jets, or even that pass he threw to Dallas Clark in the third quarter), but when he's not sharp his mistakes get magnified because the system only works if he's sharp. Once we saw him quite literally throw in the towel I knew he'd lost his cool and his level of sharpness was gone. I'm trying to think of another elite level quarterback who lost his cool on the sideline that dramatically in that big of a game.
The only way to beat him Peyton Manning is to get him to make the wrong read pre-snap. He's incredible at seeing what the defense is throwing at him and then making adjustments, and this year he's been better than ever at figuring the defenses out and finding the holes in them (once again, like he did to the Jets). On the interception the Saints had a really simple coverage disguise (switching the corners) that Manning typically spots, but this time he didn't, I believe because he'd lost his cool and was playing on tilt.
I guess what I was trying to say is that Peyton Manning's temper is his Achilles heel, like Brett Favre's Achilles heel is that cowboy/gunslinger mentality that leads to some stupid throws. He'd done a really incredible job this year of looking like he'd overcome it, but it reared it's head during that missed field goal and that was the end of the game.
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Aaron, the knock about Manning is that, with a lone exception, he always seems to blow the big games. He's made the playoffs ten times in his career, going a combined 9-9 with 6 first round exits. You don't get a place in the discussion for Best of All Time with a reputation as a guy who can't win in the playoffs. A lot of people, including (begrudgingly) myself, thought maybe he'd turn that reputation around after the Superbowl, but since 2006 he's had two more first round exits, then lost his temper and shortly after threw a pick-6 that effectively ended the game. It is a team game, but the QB, is the leader of the team, the most public face, the man on whom it usually all rests, for good or bad and they have to shoulder just as much responsibility for the L's as for the W's. You also can't throw teammates under the bus, even if you do have an 'idiot kicker', you support your teammates, at least publicly.
FWIW... 14-4 in the playoffs with one first round exit for Mr Tom Brady.
FWIW... 14-4 in the playoffs with one first round exit for Mr Tom Brady.
You have to remember also that the Colts didn't have a defense worth a crap until 2006. Yes, Brady is 14-4, but most of those wins occurred when they were taping their opponents, and I know that everyone in NE wants to pretend that didn't happen and whatnot, but I think that has a big bearing on Brady's legacy
Let's pretend for a second that all of the Spygate allegations were true (even though the only thing that has been shown is that the Patriots were trying to steal coaching signals, something that other NFL coaches acknowledge has happened for years, and that there was no evidence whatsoever that they Pats had taped other teams practices or anything like that). Did that cheating have a bigger impact on the game than the Colts team president leveraging his position on the competition committee to CHANGE THE RULES to benefit his teams' strengths? There were 10 4,000 yard passers last year, even during the run and shoot era of the late 80's early 90's we never saw more than 5 in a season before Polian started playing around with pass interference rules (in 2004, the first year of the so-called "Ty Law rule" there were 7 4,000 passers and in only one year has there been fewer than 5). You say that Brady's legacy should be tarnished because of a playing field that wasn't completely level? I say that nothing Belicheck did tilted the playing field as much as Bill Polian doing his quarterback a solid on pass interference.Cardinals wrote:You have to remember also that the Colts didn't have a defense worth a crap until 2006. Yes, Brady is 14-4, but most of those wins occurred when they were taping their opponents, and I know that everyone in NE wants to pretend that didn't happen and whatnot, but I think that has a big bearing on Brady's legacy
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Total: 1072-873 .551
Watch the 2001 Super Bowl and the first Colts/Pats AFC title game and tell me how many pass interferences weren't called. That rule change needed to happen because guys were being mugged and nothing was being done about it. It would've happened eventually anyways, because passing brings in fans, it's like home runs for baseball. A run heavy team like the Jets, to the average fan that's like watching a Whiteyball team in the 80s. Only fans of that team and purists are going to enjoy it. The casual fan wants high scoring and lots of passing, that means more $ for the NFL. Maybe it happened sooner than it would have, but it would've happened regardless. Plus with the 4,000 yard passers this year, a lot of teams are going with running back platoons anymore, there are few elite running backs and its a passing league. The rules are geared towards pass heavy teams. If you've got the personel to do it, you might as well. It isn't like Jon Kitna was passing for 4,000 yards, then we'd have something to look into
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Jon Kitna 2006: 4,208 yardsCardinals wrote:Watch the 2001 Super Bowl and the first Colts/Pats AFC title game and tell me how many pass interferences weren't called. That rule change needed to happen because guys were being mugged and nothing was being done about it. It would've happened eventually anyways, because passing brings in fans, it's like home runs for baseball. A run heavy team like the Jets, to the average fan that's like watching a Whiteyball team in the 80s. Only fans of that team and purists are going to enjoy it. The casual fan wants high scoring and lots of passing, that means more $ for the NFL. Maybe it happened sooner than it would have, but it would've happened regardless. Plus with the 4,000 yard passers this year, a lot of teams are going with running back platoons anymore, there are few elite running backs and its a passing league. The rules are geared towards pass heavy teams. If you've got the personel to do it, you might as well. It isn't like Jon Kitna was passing for 4,000 yards, then we'd have something to look into
Jon Kitna 2007: 4,068 yards
http://www.nfl.com/players/jonkitna/pro ... =KIT155733
I'll take over. Brady played for the best coach under the best system in football, that's why they're records are different. If they switched places at the start of the decade, the Pats still win a bunch of Super Bowls and the Colts never win any. Their individual values are not the same. If you're playing Franchise Mode in Madden, who's the first QB you pick? Peyton Manning. Now you could argue Saint Drew, but nobody picks Tom Brady first. At least not any self-respecting Madden Player that I know. And isn't Madden really what matters? I think so.
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Cardinals
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Great logic.
Switch both players.
Talk about how Peyton would have the same success as Brady in New England because of the TEAM AND SYSTEM.
Neglect to mention how Brady's career would replicate Manning's in Indy because of the TEAM AND SYSTEM.
If Brady had all the numbers and awards - which he does have some of, 2 super bowl MVPs, 1 MVP and the single season TD record - that Manning had because Brady was a Colt, wouldn't he then become the first player taken in Madden? This logic is just so faulty.
Switch both players.
Talk about how Peyton would have the same success as Brady in New England because of the TEAM AND SYSTEM.
Neglect to mention how Brady's career would replicate Manning's in Indy because of the TEAM AND SYSTEM.
If Brady had all the numbers and awards - which he does have some of, 2 super bowl MVPs, 1 MVP and the single season TD record - that Manning had because Brady was a Colt, wouldn't he then become the first player taken in Madden? This logic is just so faulty.
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In addition to which, how do you know they would even share similar successes by playing in each others system? How can you prove that statement? It's just wild speculation. All we can base our assumptions off in something that deals with actual results are the results and statistics themselves, not these supposed hypothetical situations.
12, 14, 15, 17, 22
I ran across this on a Colts blog earlier, and figured this sums everything up best.
The only thing I hate about modern sports is the media. I hate that 31 teams are made to feel like failures. I hate that for the second time in three years a quarterback was "the greatest of all time" right up until the last three minutes of the Super Bowl. Apparently that title is so fragile and worthless that one play makes all the difference. It's sort of the way Kobe Bryant was a choker after the 2008 finals, but now that he won again, he's back to being one of the all time greats. The media has the attention span of a gnat, which cheapens all their proclamations.
How many greatest games ever have we seen as proclaimed by the media in the last 5 years? How many players in the last 5 years have been deemed greatest ever, or greatest at their position or whatever?
The only thing I hate about modern sports is the media. I hate that 31 teams are made to feel like failures. I hate that for the second time in three years a quarterback was "the greatest of all time" right up until the last three minutes of the Super Bowl. Apparently that title is so fragile and worthless that one play makes all the difference. It's sort of the way Kobe Bryant was a choker after the 2008 finals, but now that he won again, he's back to being one of the all time greats. The media has the attention span of a gnat, which cheapens all their proclamations.
How many greatest games ever have we seen as proclaimed by the media in the last 5 years? How many players in the last 5 years have been deemed greatest ever, or greatest at their position or whatever?
And my other argument was based on a PS3 game....how serious do you think I am about any of this?Pirates wrote:In addition to which, how do you know they would even share similar successes by playing in each others system? How can you prove that statement? It's just wild speculation. All we can base our assumptions off in something that deals with actual results are the results and statistics themselves, not these supposed hypothetical situations.
I don't think we can ever make judgments on who the "Greatest of All-Time" is before his career is over (note, this doesn't mean we can't rule people out of the discussion). John Elway was the quintessential guy who could never win the big one, all the way until the last two years of his career when he did, in fact, win the big one. What pisses me off is how many media people seem to have a ton personally invested in Manning as the greatest ever. Watch how a number of talking heads went on about how Reggie Wayne should have made more of a play on the ball. Tracy Porter had the play read, beat Wayne to the spot, and Manning threw it anyway, there was nothing Wayne could do. The point from your Colts blog is well-taken, but I certainly didn't see you making any comments like that after the Pats/Giants Super Bowl. All the Pats haters got to have their fun when the helmet catch happened, and now it's our turn to have fun at Manning's expense. And look on the bright side, your quarterback may have lost his cool, but at least he didn't literally choke like Donovan McNabb in Super Bowl XXXIX.Cardinals wrote:I ran across this on a Colts blog earlier, and figured this sums everything up best.
The only thing I hate about modern sports is the media. I hate that 31 teams are made to feel like failures. I hate that for the second time in three years a quarterback was "the greatest of all time" right up until the last three minutes of the Super Bowl. Apparently that title is so fragile and worthless that one play makes all the difference. It's sort of the way Kobe Bryant was a choker after the 2008 finals, but now that he won again, he's back to being one of the all time greats. The media has the attention span of a gnat, which cheapens all their proclamations.
How many greatest games ever have we seen as proclaimed by the media in the last 5 years? How many players in the last 5 years have been deemed greatest ever, or greatest at their position or whatever?
Your REIGNING AND DEFENDING #evenyear IBC CHAMPION
2015- #torture #evenyears 179-145
2006-2014 Gritty Gutty A's 828-631
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Total: 1072-873 .551
2015- #torture #evenyears 179-145
2006-2014 Gritty Gutty A's 828-631
2005 Texas Rangers 65-97
Total: 1072-873 .551
*CAVEAT: I've been drinkign for 3 hours* So the rule change happens, know what that means? That the players were playing by the rules before and crybaby Polian thought that only by changing the rules could his team win. What a whiny douche.Cardinals wrote:Watch the 2001 Super Bowl and the first Colts/Pats AFC title game and tell me how many pass interferences weren't called. That rule change needed to happen because guys were being mugged and nothing was being done about it. It would've happened eventually anyways, because passing brings in fans, it's like home runs for baseball. A run heavy team like the Jets, to the average fan that's like watching a Whiteyball team in the 80s. Only fans of that team and purists are going to enjoy it. The casual fan wants high scoring and lots of passing, that means more $ for the NFL. Maybe it happened sooner than it would have, but it would've happened regardless. Plus with the 4,000 yard passers this year, a lot of teams are going with running back platoons anymore, there are few elite running backs and its a passing league. The rules are geared towards pass heavy teams. If you've got the personel to do it, you might as well. It isn't like Jon Kitna was passing for 4,000 yards, then we'd have something to look into
The only reason Spygate was a big deal was because everyone was eager to tear the Patriots down, because they were tearing apart a league built to have parity. It didn't matter how many former coaches came out and said it wasn't a big deal, that they had done similar stuff or the exact same stuff. no one wanted to hear it, all they wanted to hear was that the Patriots didn't deserve to win. And how did that go? The league, media and 30 other teams got the one of thh biggest "Fuck You"s ever.
Oh, and the reason that Peyton Manning is the best QB in Madden is because that's how the game developers make it, not because he's the ebst Quarterback. yes, I know Gabe already pointed out the humor of using a videogame as his argument, it was just something I had to mention.
I disagree with his assessment, but Polian's personality rubs a lot of people the wrong way so I can't say I'm shocked he did this. Now, the drive after the goal line stand, what killed us was going super conservative. I was fine with the first 2 play calls, getting out of the shadow of the end zone. But on 3rd down they needed to throw, because the Saints were expecting run, and to have the run be a Mike Hart dive into the line was terrible. That was the only time all year, and I watched every Colts game except Week 17, that we didn't go balls to the wall at the end of the half to get a score. I know a lot of Colts fans, myself included, want some changes on the Oline because run blocking on the edges is so bad that we just don't run wide anymore, because if they try to, Addai or Brown are getting hit in the backfield because the other team gets such a big push on the edges. They're great pass blockers, but the run blocking leaves much to be desired.
As for special teams, they did kill us. Special teams were much improved this year thanks to Pat McAfee getting a ton of touchbacks on kickoffs and better than Hunter Smith. The coverage units were good too. One thing I've said all year that the Colts need is a returner and I hope Polian drafts one. Every time that TJ Rushing was back to field a punt this year I hoped he would fair catch it, because he makes a lot of stupid decisions and catches the ball inside the 10 a lot. As for kick returners, well you saw Chad Simpson pin us at the 11 by bringing it out from 4 yards deep. I like him a lot as a running back, he's very powerful and hard to bring down. As a returner he's indecisive, he runs until he sees tacklers, then he tends to just stop and try and figure which way to go, then gets creamed. He did take one to the house against the Jags but that was because the blocking was fantastic on the play. The onside kick, I finally watched it yesterday and Baskett just did a terrible job. He reacted to it fine, he was halfway expecting it, but then he tried to catch it with his helmet. Its too bad it wasn't someone like Jacob Tamme or Gijion Robinson because I think they'd have made the play. My best friend and I had a running joke all year, whenever he got in we'd say "Oh hey they're letting Hank Baskett play today." I wish they wouldn't have on Sunday
As for special teams, they did kill us. Special teams were much improved this year thanks to Pat McAfee getting a ton of touchbacks on kickoffs and better than Hunter Smith. The coverage units were good too. One thing I've said all year that the Colts need is a returner and I hope Polian drafts one. Every time that TJ Rushing was back to field a punt this year I hoped he would fair catch it, because he makes a lot of stupid decisions and catches the ball inside the 10 a lot. As for kick returners, well you saw Chad Simpson pin us at the 11 by bringing it out from 4 yards deep. I like him a lot as a running back, he's very powerful and hard to bring down. As a returner he's indecisive, he runs until he sees tacklers, then he tends to just stop and try and figure which way to go, then gets creamed. He did take one to the house against the Jags but that was because the blocking was fantastic on the play. The onside kick, I finally watched it yesterday and Baskett just did a terrible job. He reacted to it fine, he was halfway expecting it, but then he tried to catch it with his helmet. Its too bad it wasn't someone like Jacob Tamme or Gijion Robinson because I think they'd have made the play. My best friend and I had a running joke all year, whenever he got in we'd say "Oh hey they're letting Hank Baskett play today." I wish they wouldn't have on Sunday
