Injury appeal

Astros · Post by **Astros** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:20 pm

Me and JP have been discussing Grady Sizemore's injury for a few days and I figured it was time for me to make my appeal under our September injuries umbrella rule.

From Sept 1

Grady Sizemore could undergo elbow surgery before the end of the season.
The Indians are done this season, competitively, and called up highly touted outfielder Michael Brantley on Tuesday afternoon. Sizemore has been playing with an inflamed left elbow since spring training. Having the procedure in September would assure his readiness for the start of spring activities in 2010, and that's what is important right now.

Sept 2
Grady Sizemore and the Indians are discussing elbow surgery that could end his season.
"We haven't decided anything yet," Sizemore said. "Right now, we're playing it day by day. We're talking about it, but that's all we've done is throw [the idea] out there." If Sizemore wants to hold off, he will definitely have the surgery immediately following the end of the season. He has been playing with an inflamed left elbow since spring training.

I think from what I've bolded, it is pretty clear that this is just a case of shutting him down and getting this taken care of so that Grady is ready for the start of spring training and to give Brantley a long look to see if he's a starter next year. If the Indians were in contention there's no way, I believe, that Grady wouldn't be in the lineup. He's played since the spring with his elbow sore. This is just a tune up kinda deal and I think Sizemore should stay in my lineup, as it's clearly not a Luis Gonzalez separated shoulder no DL type of injury

Nationals · Post by **Nationals** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 2:59 pm

I agree that there is pretty compelling evidence that were the Cleveland Indians in contention this season, Sizemore would not be shut down and would thus be eligible to play in the IBC. Let him play!

Dodgers · Post by **Dodgers** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:04 pm

Agree

Padres · Post by **Padres** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:32 pm

I also agree ...

Cardinals · Post by **Cardinals** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:41 pm

As I told Aaron before, I'm cautious in giving the OK to play, but will anyway. The reason I was/am cautious is because he is going under the knife. However since he's been playing with the condition since Spring Training, that sways my mind a good bit. My worry was it opening up a can of worms for players like Santana or Reyes - would they not be playing if the Mets were 3 games out of the NL East? However, those injuries occured during the year and Johan and Reyes were not documented as having the problem since Spring Training.

Padres · Post by **Padres** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 6:45 pm

Pirates wrote:As I told Aaron before, I'm cautious in giving the OK to play, but will anyway. The reason I was/am cautious is because he is going under the knife. However since he's been playing with the condition since Spring Training, that sways my mind a good bit. My worry was it opening up a can of worms for players like Santana or Reyes - would they not be playing if the Mets were 3 games out of the NL East? However, those injuries occured during the year and Johan and Reyes were not documented as having the problem since Spring Training.

I can tell ya' right now flat out that I do not consider Reyes and/or Santana eligible for the IBC unless and until they play in a major league game again this season.

Cardinals · Post by **Cardinals** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:47 am

I just don't see what separates Sizemore from Reyes or Santana, other than the fact that Grady had been dealing with this since Spring Training. If the Mets were on the cusp of a playoff spot, you don't think they'd be in? This is the fine line we're toeing by allowing Sizemore to play. We will just end up getting killed down the line for being inconsistent I think.

What about Soriano? The Cubs are sort of in it, but Soriano is still sitting. Though they're not really in it- it's just feasible. He had been dealing with his knee problem all year. I assume we'll need to rule on that - I'm sure Z will be posting.

I told Nick that Mike Young needs to sit out 2 weeks as well since he asked me. Why? He's sitting out for Texas and Texas is right in it, so I figured to save time/ possible DL violation there.

Rangers · Post by **Rangers** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:50 am

I think that we made the wrong call here. We have crossed a dangerous line where we're just sort of picking and guessing at who is having surgery because they really need to and who isn't when there is no hard evidence of the situations being different. The distinction between Sizemore and Santana is all just sort of feelings and vibes, nothing concrete. I don't think for a second that Reyes should be allowed to play for me, but your call here is very iffy when you won't allow Santana or Reyes to play. Plenty of things have been written to suggest that either could have played again this season. And we are talking about surgeries in all three cases.

Padres · Post by **Padres** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:59 am

The Daily News reported this regarding Reyes:

Reyes, who has not appeared in a major-league game since pulling himself from a May 20 game at Dodger Stadium, has a completely torn hamstring tendon behind his right knee, a source confirmed to the Daily News.

While hardly ideal, surgery is not necessarily as ominous as it might sound. That tendon is expendable, and is sometimes partly removed and inserted into the elbow when a pitcher undergoes Tommy John surgery.

The Mets aren’t resigned to Reyes undergoing surgery just yet, although the decision is looming. Reyes, who is presumed to be out for the year, continues to get treatment, with physical therapists trying to break up scar tissue that is irritating the severed tendon and causing significant pain.

A look at the results without Reyes indicates that the Mets have had a calvacade of players trying to replace Reyes at shortstop and filling in as the team’s leadoff hitter. Without Reyes in the lineup, the Mets have the worst production in the NL out of the leadoff spot. As of August 28 (when the Daily News article was written), Mets leadoff hitters had scored just 68 runs this season and were batting .241. Only the Pittsburgh Pirates are worse in baseball. If Reyes could have played he would have.

Hell - he should have the surgery back in June probably and be rehabbing now.

His situation is not close to Sizemore.

Padres · Post by **Padres** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:27 am

Santana is not as clear cut as Reyes but when one looks at Santana's situation it was obvious he was breaking down. He was not doing side sessions between his last three starts as he was attempting to "tough it out" ... in fact according to WFAN it was even longer then that: Reports from the team are that Santana hasn’t been throwing between starts since the All-Star break. His manager indicated it may have been longer then that:

"He has not been throwing between starts for quite awhile. I would say since before the All-Star break. He has been pitching with this problem, but not with the level of discomfort he has now," New York manager Jerry Manuel said Monday after his team's 6-2 loss to Philadelphia.

"I'm terribly concerned," Manuel told Newsday. "No question about it."

As I read further I have found the following from the September 4 NY Times:

Santana revealed that Dr. David Altchek examined him during the All-Star break and told him it was “a matter of time” before Santana would need to have the fragments removed. Although Santana said his elbow did not bother him during starts, it was taking him longer to recover between outings. Once Santana reported that to Altchek, the recommendation was for Santana to undergo surgery.

“The time frame was to do it after the season was over and I’d have plenty of time to recover,” Santana said. “But then the team decided not to do that and do it sooner than later so I would have more time to recover.”

Santana, who was 13-9 with a 3.13 earned run average this season, said he will rehabilitate with the team for the rest of the season. Even though Santana was not in pain while pitching,

If the Mets were in contention for the postseason, Santana said he would have delayed the surgery.

“The reason why I stopped is they wanted me to stop,” he said. “Otherwise, I wouldn’t stop pitching and would try to help my team.”

[Back to me ...] The last statement is no surprise as one remembers last season when the Mets announced that Santana had been pitching with a torn meniscus in his left knee only after the season ended. Santana is known as a gamer and a very prideful guy, who rightfully takes pride in his pitching ability. No doubt that if Johan Santana is 50% of himself on the mound then he's still capable of being as good as most of the pitchers playing the game right now.

Looking at the facts though, he was hurt. After a blistering first two months of the season that saw him go 7-2 with a 1.77 mark and an average of nearly nine strikeouts per start, Santana was just 6-7 with a 4.02 ERA since the beginning of June.

His situation is much closer to Sizemore then I orginally felt (especailly compared to Reyes) and I will look at it more but I am still inclined to say NO -- perhaps I should look at the Sizemore sitaution more closely as well ...

Rangers · Post by **Rangers** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:11 pm

I've mentioned this before, but the judgments that you are holding yourself to there, say between Sizemore and Santana, are unfair to you (you just for example, I think that it applies to all of us). You have neither a medical degree of any kind (or at least I don't) nor anything more than third or fourth degree knowledge - most of which is not concrete but just people's opinions - and passing through levels of people who neither have a medical background nor are the player himself. I just think that we are asking way, way too much of ourselves to try to be consistent once we've passed the line of holding ourselves to the standard of interpreting based on our expertise whether a player who has had surgery that takes him out for the year whether he could or couldn't have continued properly if his team were in the race.

I may just be being paranoid, and I guess we can cross the bridge of someone showing us how inconsistent we've been when/if they do, but I think that we're overreaching in making these sorts of judgments when they aren't totally clear, just based on an off-hand comment from someone.

Dodgers · Post by **Dodgers** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:55 pm

Guys, I think we should revisit the Sizemore ruling. I, shameful to say, feel like I didn't do my due diligence, but I was reading up on his injuries and this abdominal surgery was missing from our discussion completely and at least to me causes me some pause from our ruling.

What is news is the surgery for "athletic pubalgia." Indians head trainer Lonnie Soloff compared it to a sports hernia, but "not really": "It’s an instability of the abdominal wall, and has been causing Grady symptoms." The surgery is not considered serious and will not impact Sizemore's preparations in early November for the upcoming 2010 season.

This injury seems to have been a factor in why he went out for the season and was not done so that he could get ready for spring training. Now, you can argue that he only got it because he had the elbow surgery. But, based on the trainer's statement and the facts of the injury, I have serious doubts about whether Sizemore should still be playing.

Rangers · Post by **Rangers** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:51 pm

For what it's worth, this was the sort of thing that I was referring to when I talked about "off-hand" comments. Off-hand probably isn't the right way to say it, but the issue is that I think that there are a lot of instances, when guys have surgery and are out for the year, for example, the player/team doesn't see it as a priority to be completely explicit (or often even honest) with the public. So then when we are supposed to go to WebMD and diagnose whether their comment was accurate based on our medical expertise AND whether we deem the injury as an xx week one.

Maybe the guys won't hold us to a standard of being perfect with these calls, but like I said before, I think that allowing guys like Sizemore to play is a really dangerous precedent.

Astros · Post by **Astros** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:27 pm

I'll bench him, dunno why you couldn't have waited until AFTER my series with Dan to post this though lol

Dodgers · Post by **Dodgers** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:29 pm

I offered a suggestion to JP today, I'm not sure it's all that different than our new stance (per other thread): if there is a chance the guy could come back a la Soriano, then he can play. If he's done for the year, regardless of whether it's an early surgery situation, he's out.