NBA Discussion

[Orioles]

Kobe Bryant is unequivocally the NBA's best player, and last night's game was another shining example of how he's probably the best scorer in league history. His jumper is just unstoppable, plain and simple. At times, Raja Bell was playing terrific D, not falling for fakes, sticking close, keeping a hand in Kobe's face, and he just had no chance.

If Andrew Bynum comes back healthy by the end of the month, LA has to be the favorite to win the title, even playing in the toughest conference in NBA history. Having Bynum instead of Mbenga as their best defensive post presence will be a significant upgrade. It will also free up Gasol to play more help D on dominant post players like Duncan or Stoudemire, rather than having to defend them one-on-one and being abused while getting himself in foul trouble.

3 things bode especially well for the Lakers:

1. The bench goes 10 deep in guys Phil Jackson has enough confidence in to give significant minutes to. If Phil is confident putting a guy on the floor for 10+ minutes a night, it means he can hit open shots, protect and move the basketball, and play at least adequate team D. Their bench is as deep as any in the NBA, and that's before they get back Bynum or their best defensive reserve - Trevor Ariza.

2. They have the personnel to match up with any team in the NBA. Once Bynum is back, they can put the biggest front line in the NBA on the floor (two 7-footers and a 6-10 guy in Odom). If they have to go smaller and play more of a finesse game (as they did last night), they can survive with Bynum on the bench and Turiaf or Walton in with Odom and Gasol.

3. Their head coach has won 9 championships. Their starting backcourt has a combined 6 rings. Most of their young reserves have been to the postseason 2 years in a row now, so they know what to expect and what's expected of them.

As of right now, here are my Top 5 Western Conference contenders:

1. LA Lakers - having the best player in the world on the floor every night is a huge advantage, especially if your 2nd or 3rd option is an All-Star caliber guy who demands double-teams.

2. San Antonio Spurs - When the postseason rolls around Tim Duncan will remind us why he might be the best power forward ever. He's damn near unstoppable at times, and I love the Kurt Thomas acquisition for them. As Duncan gets older, having another quality big to take on some of his defensive responsibilities should allow him to focus more energy on controlling the paint on offense. If Duncan, Ginobili and Parker are all healthy in the postseason, well... they're still the champs aren't they?

3. Phoenix Suns - I like the Shaq move, pending a few adjustments. If Shaq gets used to firing off outlet passes immediately after defensive rebounds he might actually speed up the Suns (by creating more fast-break opportunities) more than slow them down, as expected. Collecting offensive putbacks and freeing up Stoudemire on both ends of the floor would be enough to improve the Suns, even if Shaq only ended up playing a worst-case-scenario 15-20 mins a night. If Shaq can get acclimated as quickly as he thinks he can, and remains healthy enough to give them 20-25 mins a night, they become as big a threat to win the title as LA and San Antonio. I'll be interested to see if they can work Shaq into the offense in such a way that his presence in the middle makes their potent 3-point shooting even more dangerous. A big concern remains how they will replace Marion's D come playoff time. D'Antoni's gonna have to coach 'em up on D and get the Suns to defend better as a team. I don't care how good your offense is - you can't give up 130 pts and go deep into the postseason.

4. Utah Jazz - I have to admit I haven't seen them play enough to give a complete assessment of their chances, but based on their personnel and what I've read/heard about them, they have a team that can match up with anyone. Boozer is a force inside and Deron Williams is one of the best young PG in the league. Jerry Sloan's among the best coaches in the biz. At this point they seem like a team talented and well-balanced enough to go very far, but lacking the ability to dominate any of the other top teams at any one position if necessary. Specifically, they don't have Kobe, Duncan, Nash or Dirk to take over a game or series if they have to. In a year or two, once a guy like Ronnie Brewer develops a little more, they should be even more dangerous.

5. Dallas Mavericks - This team could be higher, and could be lower. The Kidd trade (or any deal involving a top-level PG) is extremely difficult to evaluate before they play the games. This we know - Jason Kidd is an all-time great at the PG position, and given enough time he WILL make whoever he plays for a better team. The question is how quickly he can gel with the Mavs. It's much easier to integrate a big midway through the season than a PG. If everything breaks right, Dirk and Josh Howard will frequently find themselves with the ball in their hands and a wide open rim in front of them before the opposing D can catch up. I think losing Diop is a bit overrated as far as their ability to defend the post, but they'll need a more consistent defensive effort from Dampier to be successful. People forget that Kidd carried the Nets to two straight NBA finals.

Chris Paul is nasty and the New Orleans Hornets are certainly for real. In any other year they'd have to be in the top 5, but this season there are so many elite teams with so much more experience than them that I can't put them up there without seeing them compete deeper into the playoffs.

[Royals]

You lost me at "best scorer in league history"...

[Orioles]

You lost me at "best scorer in league history"...

You don't watch a lot of basketball, do you? My statement was not a ridiculous one, even if you disagree. The only two alternatives would be Wilt and Jordan. Wilt's a different animal entirely as a big man who was about 20 years ahead of his time. Obviously the best argument would be for Jordan, and I'm not ready to say Kobe's as good as Jordan overall (6 titles w/out Shaq to 3 titles with Shaq makes it an easy call). However, if you watch both guys play, it's easy to see why Kobe's arguably the better scorer. Even Jordan said he couldn't do on offense what Kobe can do at the same age. On a simple level, Jordan had a handful of unstoppable go-to moves/shots that allowed him to dominate a game. Late in his career, it was the fall-away (for example). Kobe's knife-quick jumper with a hand in his face is every bit as effective (if not more effective) than Jordan's fall-away. Jordan's basketball IQ and intensity night in and night out are unparalleled. However, Kobe can score from any spot on the floor almost at will. It's not about numbers. Sure, Kobe's making his way up all kinds of lists (after last night, his 90 40+ point games ranks 3rd behind Wilt and Jordan), but he's not looking for "his points" in the same way he used to so he's not going to obliterate Jordan's scoring records.

I'm talking about the player Michael Jordan, not the Legend of Michael Jordan. The best player ever, yes. However, that doesn't mean we should defer to the myth of Jordan as bar-none the greatest without considering the possibility that a player like Kobe might be a better pure scorer. Jordan never scored 81 points, and no doubt at the same age he was as much of a "gunner" as Bryant was when he topped that number. I'm convinced that if he wanted to, Kobe could score 100 (yeah, he didn't play the whole game when he put up 81). Even if he was looking for it, I'm not sure 100 would be in reach for Jordan.

You should watch Kobe play. Watch some old tapes of Jordan (and not in slow motion, where the gracefulness of his drives to the basket make it easy to believe nobody could ever be as good). From any given point on the floor, Bryant is a more dangerous scorer.

[Yankees]

Man I hate to agree with Bren because the rest of your post is very, very good.

Kobe Bryant is one of the greatest offensive players in the history of basketball - there's no question there.

Michael Jordan is the greatest scorer in league history, with only Wilt Chamberlain breathing the same air as, uh, "Air." At first, Michael was a devastating force when taking the ball to the basket, finishing in ways no other human had dreamed of. Then, once the explosiveness in his legs started to go, Jordan became an excellent 3-point shooter, not to mention the greatest guard at scoring from the post in the history of the league.

People forget, when looking at career point totals, that Kobe had 3 years over Jordan to begin their careers. Kobe is also no where as near as good as Jordan was at making his teammates better offensively - nor, and as good as Kobe is at it, is he in the same ballpark as Jordan at raising the level of his game to match the climate of the game.

Kobe's been pretty much the same scorer since he's been in the league - Jordan transformed himself to perform offensively in ways that would help his team win the championship. Before Kobe steps in the hallowed Jordan Chamberlain Dome, he has to be the lead dog on a championship team. He's got a HELL of an opportunity this year - and for the coming years (Odom, Bynum, Kobe, Pau - YEEESH!).

[Pirates]

Without a doubt if Kobe wanted to be selfish he could score 100 points.

[Royals]

Without a doubt if Kobe wanted to be selfish he could score 100 points.

Wait, are you saying Kobe isn't Selfish?

[Orioles]

Man I hate to agree with Bren because the rest of your post is very, very good.

Kobe Bryant is one of the greatest offensive players in the history of basketball - there's no question there.

Michael Jordan is the greatest scorer in league history, with only Wilt Chamberlain breathing the same air as, uh, "Air." At first, Michael was a devastating force when taking the ball to the basket, finishing in ways no other human had dreamed of. Then, once the explosiveness in his legs started to go, Jordan became an excellent 3-point shooter, not to mention the greatest guard at scoring from the post in the history of the league.

People forget, when looking at career point totals, that Kobe had 3 years over Jordan to begin their careers. Kobe is also no where as near as good as Jordan was at making his teammates better offensively - nor, and as good as Kobe is at it, is he in the same ballpark as Jordan at raising the level of his game to match the climate of the game.

Kobe's been pretty much the same scorer since he's been in the league - Jordan transformed himself to perform offensively in ways that would help his team win the championship. Before Kobe steps in the hallowed Jordan Chamberlain Dome, he has to be the lead dog on a championship team. He's got a HELL of an opportunity this year - and for the coming years (Odom, Bynum, Kobe, Pau - YEEESH!).

I agree with the highlighted parts above, and that's why I can't put Kobe in the argument for the best player ever. I disagree as to your assessment of his ability to score. Yes, early in his career, Jordan went to the basket and finished with unmatched grace and skill. However, I think it was almost too "beautiful," if that's possible. Dr. J changed the game in some of the same ways Jordan did as far as attacking the basket with ridiculous creativity while airborne. The memory of how far above the rest of the league Erving sat made people hesitant to acknowledge that Magic, Bird and eventually Jordan were better players (with the caveat that Dr. J's best years were in the ABA).

I think we might be encountering some of the same hesitance to acknowledge Bryant's scoring prowess when compared to Jordan. I'll admit that Kobe doesn't post up with the frequency or effectiveness Jordan did, but I disagree that he's less effective going to the basket, or shooting from 3. The regularity with which Kobe unleashes dagger 3's with 2+ defenders in his face is just absolutely unheard of. I think his ability to go to the basket and finish is a bit underrated because of how quick he is to the hoop, and how easy he makes it look. He goes to the free throw line as much as Jordan did at the same age, and other than creating occasional kick-out 3 point opportunities for teammates, isn't that what attacking the basket is all about?

I also disagree that Kobe's offensive game has not developed. He doesn't need to improve his scoring repetoire. He is learning to use his scoring ability (and the threat that ability creates) to make his teammates better. The Lakers would not be having as much success as they are right now if his game had not developed in that area. The next step is rings, and winning more than one without Shaq is the only thing that will put Kobe in conversation for best player ever.

No doubt there are arguments for both sides, but I guess what I'm saying is that for the first time since he retired, there's someone else in the argument - and it's not just one of those empty "next Jordan" claims that came up fairly frequently over the last decade. Bryant is and will remain in the argument for the NBA's greatest scorer.

[Yankees]

Without a doubt if Kobe wanted to be selfish he could score 100 points.

Jake, I like you, but this could be "without a doubt" the dumbest thing ever said on this board. Kobe was blindingly unconscious when he scored 81 points. He took 46 shots! He made 28 baskets!

I'm not sure how familiar you are with the game of basketball - but I scored 25 points playing all 40 minutes of my last game, and felt like I couldn't miss a shot.

100 points is 25 points a quarter! Kobe averages 28 points per game! Kobe played 42 minutes and was STILL 19 points short.

Don't hold your breath - we are never seeing another 100 point game. There's also a 99% chance we don't see another 80 point game.

Kobe is a fantastic, often times magical basketball players who is one of the greatest scorers in the history of the game. But he ain't 100 points good.

[Orioles]

Without a doubt if Kobe wanted to be selfish he could score 100 points.

Jake, I like you, but this could be "without a doubt" the dumbest thing ever said on this board. Kobe was blindingly unconscious when he scored 81 points. He took 46 shots! He made 28 baskets!

I'm not sure how familiar you are with the game of basketball - but I scored 25 points playing all 40 minutes of my last game, and felt like I couldn't miss a shot.

100 points is 25 points a quarter! Kobe averages 28 points per game! Kobe played 42 minutes and was STILL 19 points short.

Don't hold your breath - we are never seeing another 100 point game. There's also a 99% chance we don't see another 80 point game.

Kobe is a fantastic, often times magical basketball players who is one of the greatest scorers in the history of the game. But he ain't 100 points good.

Not on any given night, but I'd say Kobe's the one guy for whom that absurd number is not impossible if everything breaks right.

[Pirates]

Maybe it is out of reach but he certainly isnt unselfish this year.

[Yankees]

I'm not saying Kobe is less effective going to the basket or shooting the 3. He's obviously excellent at both of those things. I'm saying he's not yet a "Jordan good" offensive player. That's not an insult. Kobe hasn't hit 30 yet! He has plenty of time - but he's going to have to keep developing his game.

You want to know what? I agree Kobe's worked his way into the argument. Just, once he's there, he's not winning over Jordan or Wilt RIGHT NOW.

For me, Kobe needs to get 2 non-Shaq rings to be in the "greatest player ever" conversation. Based on Jordan's lack of a true difference-making big man, I think that's only fair.

[Orioles]

For me, Kobe needs to get 2 non-Shaq rings to be in the "greatest player ever" conversation. Based on Jordan's lack of a true difference-making big man, I think that's only fair.

Absolutely agree.

[Brewers]

I basically agree with your entire post Z, except for the following....

Then, once the explosiveness in his legs started to go, Jordan became an excellent 3-point shooter

MJ had a career 3pt% mark of .327 with 95-96 (.427), 96-97 (.374), and 89-90 (.376) as his best seasons from beyond the arc. He surpassed 100 3PM only twice in a season. Not really my idea of an excellend 3-point shooter.

Kobe, on the other hand, has a career 3pt% mark of .338 and has surpassed 100 3PM four times already and is closing in on number five. While better than Jordan I still wouldn't consider this to be indicitive of an excellent 3-point shooter.

[Yankees]

Not on any given night, but I'd say Kobe's the one guy for whom that absurd number is not impossible if everything breaks right.

If there was anyone in basketball who could do it it, yes, that man would be Kobe. That's a loaded-ass statement though.

If the Patriots re-sign Moss and trade for Ocho-Cinco AND TO, AND keep Welker, AND go to 4-receiver sets on every play, then Brady MIGHT throw 80 TD passes in a year.

Guys, let's clear the air - it's not gonna happen. 46 shots in 42 minutes is an obscene amount of shots - as in totally and ridiculously ludicrous amount. To get to 100 points, and let's even bump it up to 50 shots, he would have had to have gone 37-50 from the floor, and hit the other 2 free throws to go 20-20 from the stripe. For a guard to shoot 70% from the floor on a night when he has to shoot 50 shots is next-to-fucking impossible.

I'm pretty sure I have a better chance of becoming President then Kobe; 1) finding a way to take 50 shots, 2) making almost 75% of them, 3) making every free throw he takes, 4) shooting 60% from the 3-point line.

It hurts how dumb this argument is.

[Yankees]

Brett D - Totally agree "excellent" was probably pretty strong. But it was a shot he became much more feared for towards the end of his career - and actually helped open the lane back up for him a little. Once he lost some of his explosiveness, Jordan got trapped at times when he wanted to take it to the basket. By adding the three as more of a weapon, he forced defenders to come out on him and re-opened the lane for his still fantastic work at the rim. With the Bulls, it's not like Jordan became "ineffective" at taking it to the rim - he just went from "can jump from anywhere on the floor and lay it in at any angle" to "still the best ever, only not quite as good."

[Astros]

People still watch the NBA?

[DBacks]

I gotta give it to the NBA, they are certainly are doing a good job working themselves back into my life, and many other casual fans lives as well. No doubt, a lot of it has to do with the flurry of trades made lately. I think a problem the NBA always suffers is their lack of change during the season. Usually what you start with is what you're gonna end with. This year though GMs are acting like they are fantasy baseball GMs and are really making the midseason entertaining.

The Suns/Lakers game was the first one I've watched in a long time and that is solely because of it being Shaq's first game with Pheonix. Luckily, the game had about 7 other subplots which made it a really fun contest to watch. Not to mention it was a kick-ass game.

Now here's hoping they deliver in the post-season. With four teams I'm very interested to watch, in the West alone, it should be great. Maybe the NBA is making a comeback. We'll see.

[Yankees]

Without question the league has more overall talent right now then at any other point in our lifetimes. I'm talking about from team 1 to team 30.

The players are also following the LeBron and MJ mold and becoming much more image conscious, and thus more popular. It's an exciting time for the NBA.

[Mets]

I have a lot of problems with the NBA.

1. What happened to playing defense? Give me the 88-82 games of the 1994 Knicks...enjoy tension filled games much more than razzle dazzle.
2. How do these guys make $20M a year like it's nothing. When Johan got that, everyone thought it was crazy.
3. What a bunch of crybabys....way too much drama
4. My wife works for Turner Sports, so I have the NBA All-Star weekend has consumed the last 3 months of our lives, since she ran point on a lot of it. So I hold a grudge.

[Marlins]

Kobe might be one of the better scorers ever, but he's not even the best player in the league now. Comparing him to Jordan is adequate solely on a scoring level. Jordan had the ability to make his teammates better. The better comparison is Chamberlain. He was out there scoring in circles around everyone as the Celtics were just sitting back and winning everything. Would Kobe have won anything without Shaq? Doubt it.

LeBron is not too shabby a scorer himself but he singlehandedly is making Cleveland a contender by making everyone else on his team better. He has a full game.

Don't get me wrong, Kobe's a great player, and I think the Lakers made a great move aquiring Gasol as they are realizing Kobe's not the kind of player that can make a team win.

[Orioles]

I have a lot of problems with the NBA.

1. What happened to playing defense? Give me the 88-82 games of the 1994 Knicks...

... and then give me a nice sharp razor blade so I can slit my wrists. No one in their right mind wants to see a return to the plodding and unimaginative offenses of that era. David Stern has nightmares about that. The NBA will never return to that style b/c that's not how the rest of the world plays basketball (nor should they).

[Astros]

For way too long, it seemed like all the NBA was filled with was a bunch of thugs that made 12 million a year, threw a fit they weren't making more, blew all their money and got arrested at night clubs twice a week. After Reggie Miller retired, I had no reason to like the Pacers cause they were filled with thugs. Before I looked at their roster yesterday, I couldn't have named you 3 players on the team. Give me college basketball over the NBA every day

[Orioles]

Kobe might be one of the better scorers ever, but he's not even the best player in the league now. Comparing him to Jordan is adequate solely on a scoring level. Jordan had the ability to make his teammates better. The better comparison is Chamberlain. He was out there scoring in circles around everyone as the Celtics were just sitting back and winning everything. Would Kobe have won anything without Shaq? Doubt it.

LeBron is not too shabby a scorer himself but he singlehandedly is making Cleveland a contender by making everyone else on his team better. He has a full game.

Don't get me wrong, Kobe's a great player, and I think the Lakers made a great move aquiring Gasol as they are realizing Kobe's not the kind of player that can make a team win.

There's not a player in the league good enough to win by himself. Not Kobe. Not LeBron. Not nobody. There are too many good teams (and way more talent in the league than when Jordan ruled). You MUST have at least 2 star players.

I'm absolutely sick of people criticizing Kobe for winning multiple titles with Shaq. Shaq wouldn't have won those titles without Kobe. Jordan wouldn't have won titles without Pippen. Magic wouldn't have won without Worthy, and Bird wouldn't have won without McHale. Puhleeze. Being the 2nd option on 3 championship teams before the age of 27 is impressive any way you slice it. If you can't admit that, then you're just a hater grasping at reasons to discredit Bryant. I don't like Kobe Bryant the person (as he appears to the public at least - since I don't know him personally), but that doesn't affect how I evaluate him as a basketball player.

The "Kobe doesn't make his teammates better" argument is tired, and losing steam as well. Watch the Lakers play. Read what his teammates and coach have said about his approach this year and last. The team is not getting better by accident, or in spite of it's best player, for that matter.

[Orioles]

P.S. Ask LeBron who's the best player in the NBA. He will (and has) say Kobe every time. LeBron's Cavs would get eaten alive in the West. Kobe's Lakers (pre-Gasol and Andrew Bynum becoming a factor) could have just as easily won the East as LeBron's Cavs did. When his career is over, might LeBron be considered the greater player? Of course. He's terrific. At his age, if he continues to improve at this rate, the sky is the limit. However, there's just no way he's a better all-around player than Bryant right now.

[Marlins]

Yeah, the Lakers look great standing around watching Kobe score 81...