Mitchell Report

[Yankees]

Totally agree w/ Bren here...I remember Thomas and Gwynn jumped out on this and NO ONE backed them up...made every other player suspicious to me...

[DBacks]

Bren, their are certain players you can assume are on steroids and certain players you just dont even question.

First, that right there is riduclous. In my mind they're all innocent until proven guilty. This witch hunt is ridiculous. So many players being tarnished without an ounce of proof. Just some nerdy sports columnists with cheap accusation. Until I see some Brian Roberts type proof, I'm not buying it.

Thomas and Gwynn should be applauded for trying to get out in front of this thing, but to hold it against all the players is ridiculous. What are the clean ones supposed to do? Unite together in some grand gesture, as if it's the final scene of a Disney sports movie? Are they supposed to divide the community of players? Point fingers and start bringing each other down? Drag themselves into a frenzy and chaos so that their union becomes a weakened joke? That'll be great next time they have to negotiate with ownership.

You live in the real world fellas, and in the real world, you gotta take care of you. The clean players have done enough just by staying clean. It's not up to them to bring down the dirty ones. That is up to baseball. The MLB has to make it happen. You can insist on going all McCarthy and labeling everyone a user if you want, but its stupid and its wrong.

[Yankees]

I'm sorry, whether you want to admit it or not, every player has a responsibility to not only obey the laws of their league BUT ALSO THE LAWS THAT GOVERN THE USA. Steroids are/were illegal - that hasn't changed in decades. The lack of doing anything about steroids has caused some obscene number of kids that we will never know use steroids, shortened their lives, caused career ending injuries, forced people into poverty because they HAD TO TRY TO KEEP UP.

I have always had the utmost respect for Gwynn and Thomas because they did what every clean player should have done - united to form a front. They didn't have to finger anyone, the people who took steroids would have been noticeable by their absence.

To this day, and I know this is gonna hurt Gabe, I remember a Rick Reilly article where he was interviewing Sammy Sosa - who had said he would take a test to prove his innocence - and asked him to go take a test. He wouldn't do it.

Steroids are bad, the union is WAY too strong, and players should NOT be protected. I'm not saying I was standing there saying, "You did steroids," "You did steroids," but I was truly disappointed that Gwynn and Thomas were not supported by others. Baseball should be without steroids, and it takes courageous people to start a revolution - my hat will always be off to Gwynn and Thomas, and the lack of support certainly, while saying it made me suspicious of everyone was poorly worded, did make me realize that this was a far bigger problem then I had originally thought.

[Royals]

Gabe, who's clean? Your pal Slammy Sosa certainly wasn't. There's no reason to think any of the players are clean because none of them (with one exception out of 1200 players on the 40 man rosters of the 30 teams) were willing to talk with the commission on their own to try to improve the situation. Who's asking for Disney? I'm just asking them to talk to the guy, on the record, and tell him what they know. You can't tell me Frank Thomas is the only guy in baseball to know anything.
Until there is a comprehensive testing policy, using the best methods available (i.e. blood tests) and more effective deterrents through penalties, there is no foundation for suggesting any of these players are clean.

[DBacks]

I don't know if that whole post was directed at me or not, but I don't recall ever saying a player was right to take steroids. But to expect clean players to bear the responsiblity of "outing" other guys or take on the burden of cleaning of the sport is unfair. Its the responsiblity of the league to run a clean sport, not the players.

Like I said, Gwynn and Thomas should be applauded, but that doesn't mean others should be convicted for not doing the same thing. Not everyone is a hero, not everyone is a revolutionary. Some guys were just trying to survive, and that's okay. It's not their job to protect the integrity of the game. They did their part just by staying clean. They're not the police.

Reilly is a joke and anyone with a brain knows it. He's in that hallowed section of sports personalities that includes Skip Bayliss, Joe Morgan, and Tim McCarver. Also, every Sosa hater in the world repeats that story without going into the Players Union side of it, a part of the story that convienently gets overlooked time and time again. But hey, why should you guys listen to both sides of the story? What good would that do? Who needs the truth when accusations are so much more entertaining?

But, you know what, as far as Sosa goes, I'm not gonna argue it with you or anybody here. It's not a battle worth fighting. I'm a fan of his, and always will be, and there's nothing anybody here is going to say that's going to change my mind, just as yours won't be changed either. He's the reason I love baseball, and the sport is a big enough part of my life that I'll always be supportive. As for you guys, you guys convicted him a long time ago. I only hope that the HoF voters remember that there's been no hard evidence against him so far. If it comes out, so be it, but until then he's clear in my book. Maybe I'm too "liberal" but a bunch of jealous guys tainting him a user on nothing but pictures and speculation isn't enough for me, even though it might be for the rest of you.

As for the rest of the post, I agree, steroids are bad and baseball should be rid of it. But I'm just not going to convict every player who wasn't willing to lead a charge against it. It wasn't their responsibility.

[Cardinals]

Having to prove your innocence is the most retarded thing ever.

[DBacks]

Gabe, who's clean? Your pal Slammy Sosa certainly wasn't. There's no reason to think any of the players are clean because none of them (with one exception out of 1200 players on the 40 man rosters of the 30 teams) were willing to talk with the commission on their own to try to improve the situation. Who's asking for Disney? I'm just asking them to talk to the guy, on the record, and tell him what they know. You can't tell me Frank Thomas is the only guy in baseball to know anything.
Until there is a comprehensive testing policy, using the best methods available (i.e. blood tests) and more effective deterrents through penalties, there is no foundation for suggesting any of these players are clean.

I'm sorry, but I can't argue with this because it's too fucking dumb. It's beyond logic. Players have to prove they're clean? Sorry Castro, thats not the way it works. You gotta prove they're dirty.

Criminals don't prove their innocence - courts prove their guilt. You don't like it? Sorry. That's America Jack, and god bless it.

Nobody has to talk to Mitchell if they dont' want to. What authority does he have? Who is he to them? Nobody has to incriminate themselves, their friends, or teammates if they don't want to. You can assume that it makes every single baseball player in the world a user. I don't care. It only makes you continue to sound stupid.

[Yankees]

Did you mean "just trying to survive by taking steroids and making themselves play better" or "just trying to survive"?

No one's asking people to point a finger - all Gwynn and Thomas were asking was for people was to agree to take the tests. I'm not sure what's wrong with a clean player saying, "Sure, I'll take a test." There was a LOT of talk, Gwynn and Thomas were the only actions.

[DBacks]

I meant just trying to survive by keeping their heads down, mouths shut, bodies clean, and as a result, their roster spot, all the while staying in competition with guys who were juicing. It sounds like enough to do. I can't blame them for leaving the steroid investigation crap to other people.

[Yankees]

You are REALLY going to have to explain to me how a clean player, who's made an MLB roster, has to worry about their roster spot...

If Sosa was clean, why didn't he join Thomas and Gwynn - he CLEARLY didn't have to worry about his roster spot. You can defend the athletes all you want - but those who used steroids, and those who were clean that didn't take a stand, made it "ok" for an ENTIRE other generation of baseball players to use them.

You think an owner's gonna blackball a player for taking a drug test? You think a manager's not gonna take a guy because he took a drug test? You think teammates can risk putting pressure on a guy to not take a drug test w/ the incredible intrusion media has right now?

It took putting a panel of our heroes on trial and making them all look like idiots for people to actually sit up and take notice...

[Royals]

1. We (Brett and I) are not convicting anyone here. We're saying they haven't shown they're clean and yes, that's necessary in a business that has developed a reputation for being so dirty.

2. This isn't a court, it's not a matter of the justice system. MLB is a private enterprise whose income is dependent on the public believing that the product is an honest one. There's no right to get paid millions of dollars to play baseball, it's a privilege. other companies and businesses require drug tests for their staff to prove they aren't sing drugs. If you refuse to take the test, it's treated as a positive and you'll lose your job.

3. "I'm a fan of his, and always will be, and there's nothing anybody here is going to say that's going to change my mind, just as yours won't be changed either." I couldn't disagree more with this. Your opinion may be one that won't change ( based on blind faith or whatever, it doesn't matter). Other opinions (specifically mine) are based on information. As the available information changes, so too can our opinions.

[Angels]

Gotta finally jump in on this.

I think we can all agree there is plenty of blame to go around. 99.9% of everyone from players to management to scouts to the media to umpires etc did nothing to prevent the escalation of this issue over the past 20 or so years.

But you have to remember that Donald Fehr basically had a gag order on players from publicly speaking on the issue and made it clear that players were not to take voluntary tests. Thomas and Gwynn were the only players to challenge him and the players turned their backs on them because that is what their union leader wanted. I can't believe Fehr's not getting hammered more with all this talk in the media these days. If I were a clean player I'd be calling for his resignation due to his lack of leadership on this issue and for doing everything he could to prevent a drug testing system during his tenure. Lots of blame to go around, yes. But in my opinion, Fehr's the first in line.

[Royals]

I agree that Fehr deserves some of the blame.
But the ONLY people responsible for the actions of the individual players is the players themselves. Period. Each one made a decision whether or ot to speak out and the overwhelming majority chose not to and they are the only ones responsible for those decisions.

[DBacks]

You are REALLY going to have to explain to me how a clean player, who's made an MLB roster, has to worry about their roster spot...

Are you serious? You really can't understand why the utility players and bench guys of the world weren't going to rise up against the HR hitting superstars? You think the guys who make no money for a franchise are really gonna feel safe going up against the guys who make all the dough for the team and the sport? It makes sense to me and plenty of others. If that really seems like an impossible scenario to you, then I guess we can just agree to disagree.

Why didn't the clean superstars jump in? Well, the union would be a pretty damn good reason. Just because you dont' care about it doesn't mean they didn't.

[Royals]

sorry Gabe, that's BS. The superstars are the ones who had the least to fear from the Union. it wasn't just utility guys that weren't speaking up, it was the superstars too.
incidentally, the utility guys are just as likely to use them as the superstars. The difference in pay between a spot in AAA and a spot on the bench in the Bronx, Boston or any other MLB city is huge.

[DBacks]

Sorry Bren, it's not. You're saying baseball players of the 90s should have been just fine going against the union? Because its not like that was important time for them to stick together and be strong. Its not like there was a strike that decade or anything. Nothing to give them an even stronger sense of comradery.

And yeah, everyone had reason to use them, but that doesn't mean they did, no matter how much you might want it to. The guys who were clean don't have to prove to you or anybody else that they didn't use. The people like you who accuse them should be the ones coming with some kind of proof. But no one does. Even the almighty Mitchell Report was severely lacking in evidence in a lot of cases. Accuse and whine all you want. The guys who were innocent don't need to prove it to you, and it's shows a complete lack of class and intelligence to label them cheaters with no proof. But, I would expect nothing less.

[Giants]

As far as Sosa goes (maybe I should have put this on my list of sports milestones I witnessed) I was at Rafael Palmeiro's first game back from his steroid suspension, which happened to be in Oakland. We were sitting in the right field corner looking right at Sammy, an angle that I once had before at a Giants game during his heyday (not sure of the year, I think it was 2002). It really looked like someone had cut off his head and put it on a new body, that's how tiny he looked compared to what he was before. Bodies certainly change, but men in their late 30's with that drastic of a change put on a pot belly, they don't lose 35 pounds in the offseason.

More generally, the Players Union is like the lawyers who are trying to shut down Dateline: To Catch a Predator, using loopholes and lines to try and deflect the issue.

It does suck for the players who are being forced to prove a negative, which is practically impossible, and that's the punishment for the league creating the environment that it has and fostering the cheating behavior for so long. Is it fair? No. Is it just desserts? Absolutely.

[Royals]

1. The Mitchell report wasn't 'Almighty' that was part of the problem, they really didn't have any authority and people are acting as if they did.

2. Yes, if the Union does something wrong, then you go against it. The union is there to serve the union members, not the other way around (which is much more how MLB's and some other unions work). What's more important, sticking together or doing the right thing? Hmm?

3. MLB players are under a cloud of suspicion which has been generated due to their actions and their words (and lack of both). I am not saying they're guilty or convicting them, but they certainly are not innocent or clean either. Hiding behind "The union told me to do (or not do) it" is pure crap.

[Angels]

I agree that Fehr deserves some of the blame.
But the ONLY people responsible for the actions of the individual players is the players themselves. Period. Each one made a decision whether or ot to speak out and the overwhelming majority chose not to and they are the only ones responsible for those decisions.

I don't disagree that each player is responsible, and as a whole they probably are much more responsible than anyone including Fehr, the Commish etc. But there are the key words - "as a whole". The union mentality unfortunately takes individuality out of it's members. Plus there is always the fear of isolation from other members if you speak up. And Fehr is responsible for what the union mentality has been over the years.

Thomas and Gwynn had the balls no one else did. And if the players knew that they could get by without retribution, they may have joined them. I'd guess that if a just a few stars joined them, there would have been a domino effect of others joining them too. So in that respect, I can understand your point.

I still say Fehr is the most responsible.

[Royals]

It does suck for the players who are being forced to prove a negative, which is practically impossible, and that's the punishment for the league creating the environment that it has and fostering the cheating behavior for so long. Is it fair? No. Is it just desserts? Absolutely.

Well put, though, in this case, it's not impossible. These men are, frequently, millionaires many times over. If I was a player who wanted to show that I was clean, I'd take a blood test every month or whenever with an independent testing agency using the WADA regulations and standards. Donald Fehr doesn't like it? Tell him to go fuck himself.

[Giants]

That still wouldn't do it, an established player who started doing that now still couldn't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he hadn't cheated before then, and there would still be doubters saying that the player was just taking some sort of undetectable supplement. This is the same position a teacher accused of child abuse or an employer accused of racism gets put in.

[Royals]

if you're a Barry Bonds or someone else who is under a lot of suspicion, then that's probably true. For most of the players though, they're not under heavy suspicion, they're playing in a shadow of all that and in their case, I think it would make all the difference.

[Giants]

The ones who aren't under heavy suspicion aren't challenged to prove their innocence.

[Royals]

Speifically? No. But they still live under that suspicion, including the great ones, like Pujols. In this atmosphere, just being great is enough to generate suspicion. Much as I hate A-rod, I'd love to believe he really is clean (especially for when he takes out Bonds' records). That said, if he tested positive i'd dance a jig...

[Astros]

I guess I'll jump in on this. Bren, you are sounding like Joe McCarthy. Do you have a Red List too? For someone who touts being a liberal so much, you are without a doubt the most close minded person I know. If you're a ballplayer and you're clean, then you have nothing to prove to anyone. You know you're clean, the tests prove you're clean. Why should that player go take tests to prove to the almighty Bren that he's not on roids or HGH? What is that going to do? Nothing. Unless that player is a Pujols/ARod type superstar, the media isn't going to talk about it, the fans won't know about it and even if the media talks about it, they'll only discuss it the first time. Then that player is taking time out of their day that they could be watching video, taking BP, spending with their family, just to take a drug test they don't need to just to make some grand gesture. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of