IBC

Marlins wrote:

Marlins wrote:

Marlins wrote: That's from 4 years ago. Shockingly similar to my current top 10.

Marlins (2/21/2012)

1. Justin Verlander, SP
2. Troy Tulowitzki, SS
3. Ian Kinsler, 2B
4. Carl Crawford, LF
5. Max Scherzer, SP
6. Justin Morneau, 1B
7. Wil Myers, OF
8. Aramis Ramirez, 3B
9. Jarred Cosart, SP
10. Mark Beuhrle, SP

Marlins (12/27/12)

1. Justin Verlander, SP
2. Troy Tulowitzki, SS
3. Ian Kinsler, 2B
4. Max Scherzer, SP
5. Wil Myers, OF
6. Carl Crawford, LF
7. Trevor Cahill, SP
8. Aramis Ramirez, 3B
9. Mark Buehrle, SP
10. Justin Morneau, 1B

Denard Span just misses.

Marlins (2/1/14)

1. Troy Tulowitzki, SS
2. Justin Verlander, SP
3. David Price, SP
4. Wil Myers, OF
5. Yasiel Puig, OF
6. Danny Salazar, SP
7. Ian Kinsler, 2B
8. Brandon Belt, 1B
9. Eddie Butler, SP
10. Jarred Cosart, SP

Cosart sneaks in at 10 over W. Flores or T. Cahill.

Marlins (1/8/15)

1. Troy Tulowitzki, SS
2. David Price, SP
3. Evan Longoria, 3B
4. Robinson Cano, 2B
5. Justin Verlander, SP
6. Wil Myers, OF
7. Brandon Belt, 1B
8. Wily Peralta, SP
9. Danny Salazar, SP
10. Alexander Reyes, SP

HM: 1B Matt Olson, SP Eddie Butler, SP Reynaldo Lopez

First post as A's GM...

Harvey
Arrieta
Wheeler
Tillman
Bogaerts
Profar
Alfaro
Bell
Taylor
Feliz

Welcome to the AL. It's kinda like the NL but the game we play is inferior.

Orioles wrote:Welcome to the AL. It's kinda like the NL but the game we play is inferior.

Did we just become best friends?

Rockies wrote:

Orioles wrote:Welcome to the AL. It's kinda like the NL but the game we play is inferior.

Did we just become best friends?

Hah, with the abundance of Sawx fans in the league, I figure the statement should ruffle some feathers

Even as a Sox fan, and even a David Ortiz fan, I still rather the game with no DH. But after spending the first 13 years of the league in the NL, figured it was time for a change.

Watching pitchers "hit" and injure themselves running the bases is embarrassing.

Mariners wrote:Watching pitchers "hit" and injure themselves running the bases is embarrassing.

Employing a guy who can do nothing but "hit" to play for the pitcher so the manager has no need to execute in game strategy is embarrassing.

Rockies wrote:

Mariners wrote:Watching pitchers "hit" and injure themselves running the bases is embarrassing.

Employing a guy who can do nothing but "hit" to play for the pitcher so the manager has no need to execute in game strategy is embarrassing.

Ask Mike Matheny how awesome in-game strategy is...he doesn't really understand it, nor do other NL managers. Also kind of embarrassing to watch.

Rockies wrote:

Mariners wrote:Watching pitchers "hit" and injure themselves running the bases is embarrassing.

Employing a guy who can do nothing but "hit" to play for the pitcher so the manager has no need to execute in game strategy is embarrassing.

Giving national league pitchers a free out every other inning until the 6th is embarrassing. Having a weakness in the offense just so the manager has to employ a "strategy" in order to decide when he actually wants to send someone to the plate that can hit a baseball isn't strategy. It is making a manager account for weakness that doesn't need to be there.

The DH is also one of MLB's Social Programs to keep the elderly employed longer. Why you gotta pick on the elderly???

Because they are being paid millions for work they did in the past when present value is lost on the rookies actually doing the work.

And I am a NL guy playing in the AL and strategy is not that hard, but there is a difference between playing a certain strategy and having a team that can execute that strategy.

I am sorry some coaches don't know when to make the right swaps or over think shit, but having a DH still doesn't aide in when you bring in a relief pitcher (maybe you can carry one more pitcher on your 25 man), just a case of it you want to make a double switch or not. And given how shitty some position players are, that might not be a bad thing either to get their awful defense/offense off the field to maintain/overcome a lead.

AL guys always think the pitcher's spot is an automatic out... There have been plenty of pitchers that handled the bat fairly well, and getting down a bunt isn't the easiest thing either (and many pitchers struggle with it). From a Cardinals perspective alone: Woody Williams was my favorite hitting pitcher. The dude hit a 400+ foot RBI double off Randy Johnson in the 2001 playoffs. That was amazing. Andy Benes was a solid hitter, leading active pitchers in home runs for a while until Mike Hampton passed him (who was a very good hitter). Jason Marquis was good enough that he was even used as a pinch hitter occasionally. Adam Wainwright even has improved a lot as a hitter and can hold his own at the plate. Wanna guess who the first Cardinal is to hit a home run in the new Busch Stadium? Mark Mulder. Bob Gibson was worth 7.8 wins over the course of his career... from his offensive value alone. He hit 24 home runs and slashed .206/.243/.301 (though the one advantage he had over his peers is that he never had to face Bob Gibson).

Pitchers coming through doesn't happen often, but when it does, it's pretty awesome. This is a simple game. 9 innings, 9 players, 27 outs. But for some reason it seems acceptable to have 2 guys share one of the jobs. It would be like giving PGA tour guys a designated putter because we just want to see them drive the hell out of the ball anyway. Maybe we should give Andrelton Simmons a designated hitter too, because we don't really care about what he does at the plate, we just want to watch him make amazing plays all game long.

Orioles wrote:AL guys always think the pitcher's spot is an automatic out... There have been plenty of pitchers that handled the bat fairly well, and getting down a bunt isn't the easiest thing either (and many pitchers struggle with it). From a Cardinals perspective alone: Woody Williams was my favorite hitting pitcher. The dude hit a 400+ foot RBI double off Randy Johnson in the 2001 playoffs. That was amazing. Andy Benes was a solid hitter, leading active pitchers in home runs for a while until Mike Hampton passed him (who was a very good hitter). Jason Marquis was good enough that he was even used as a pinch hitter occasionally. Adam Wainwright even has improved a lot as a hitter and can hold his own at the plate. Wanna guess who the first Cardinal is to hit a home run in the new Busch Stadium? Mark Mulder. Bob Gibson was worth 7.8 wins over the course of his career... from his offensive value alone. He hit 24 home runs and slashed .206/.243/.301 (though the one advantage he had over his peers is that he never had to face Bob Gibson).

Pitchers coming through doesn't happen often, but when it does, it's pretty awesome. This is a simple game. 9 innings, 9 players, 27 outs. But for some reason it seems acceptable to have 2 guys share one of the jobs. It would be like giving PGA tour guys a designated putter because we just want to see them drive the hell out of the ball anyway. Maybe we should give Andrelton Simmons a designated hitter too, because we don't really care about what he does at the plate, we just want to watch him make amazing plays all game long.

Couple countpoints here........

1) Pitchers that can hit are clearly the exception, not the rule. Is it really worth watching pitchers flail away all season just for that one chance that one of them is going to come through and get a meaningful hit? I would personally rather watch David Ortiz, Edgar Martinez and Frank Thomas types provide meaningful hits all season long.

2) A Pitchers job is to pitch. It is a very unique and taxing position on the field. That is where they provide their greatest value and impact on a game. Watching a manager yank a starting pitcher in the 6th or 7th innning, when he's rolling along with a low pitch count, because the manager needs to get a real bat in the lineup in order to score a run is a waste.

3) Bad analogy, golf isn't baseball and it is a single player sport. Football may be a little closer. A better analogy may be we could suggest that they do away with field goal kickers and just make someone from the 11 starters on offense kick the extra points and field goals. That would be entertaining. "Hey, Payton! Go kick that extra point now, but don't pull your hammy!".

4) Andrelton Simmons doesn't pitch. He doesn't touch the ball every single time a pitch is thrown. Comparing the other position players on the field to the pitchers role is a pretty big reach, IMO. That's just my opinion though, and I recognize you probably threw that in there more for entertainment value than to really support your position. At least I would hope so.


Anyways, there will always be disagreement between people that want to keep the old ways of the NL, and those that like the more challenging nature of the AL. There is nothing wrong with either way really, they are just different and fans seem to enjoy them both.

Mariners wrote: 1) Pitchers that can hit are clearly the exception, not the rule. Is it really worth watching pitchers flail away all season just for that one chance that one of them is going to come through and get a meaningful hit? I would personally rather watch David Ortiz, Edgar Martinez and Frank Thomas types provide meaningful hits all season long.

Aren't those guys the exceptions as well?

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?p ... &players=0

Not really an inspiring list outside of a few.

Pirates wrote:

Mariners wrote: 1) Pitchers that can hit are clearly the exception, not the rule. Is it really worth watching pitchers flail away all season just for that one chance that one of them is going to come through and get a meaningful hit? I would personally rather watch David Ortiz, Edgar Martinez and Frank Thomas types provide meaningful hits all season long.

Aren't those guys the exceptions as well?

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?p ... &players=0

Not really an inspiring list outside of a few.

Versus watching this group hit?

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?p ... &players=0

I'd rather watch the guys from your list hit.

In addition, a lot of those guys on your list played in the field, as well. Not very many guys these days, if any, that are solely a DH. Martinez even logged time at 1b and catcher last season.

Many AL teams use the position to rotate position players through on off days so they can still hit but get a break from playing in the field.

As (unfortunately) a life-long Twins fan, I have grown to despise AL baseball and the DH. But, what sells me on the need to continue to watch pitchers hit isn't the good hitting pitchers like Carlos Zambrano or Mike Hampton. It's watching Bartolo Colon at the plate. He ends the argument for the DH.

Royals wrote:As (unfortunately) a life-long Twins fan, I have grown to despise AL baseball and the DH. But, what sells me on the need to continue to watch pitchers hit isn't the good hitting pitchers like Carlos Zambrano or Mike Hampton. It's watching Bartolo Colon at the plate. He ends the argument for the DH.

Add Randy Johnson to that list, as well.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIa8qBbYK2Y

Mariners wrote: Versus watching this group hit?

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?p ... &players=0

I'd rather watch the guys from your list hit.

In addition, a lot of those guys on your list played in the field, as well. Not very many guys these days, if any, that are solely a DH. Martinez even logged time at 1b and catcher last season.

Many AL teams use the position to rotate position players through on off days so they can still hit but get a break from playing in the field.

That's fine if you'd rather watch them hit, but the guys you listed are all-time greats and are the exception, not the rule. Most DHs are just sort of average/above average hitters, and you wouldn't notice them missing from your favorite team's lineup -- unless you had to replace them with a pitcher.

Mariners wrote:

Royals wrote:As (unfortunately) a life-long Twins fan, I have grown to despise AL baseball and the DH. But, what sells me on the need to continue to watch pitchers hit isn't the good hitting pitchers like Carlos Zambrano or Mike Hampton. It's watching Bartolo Colon at the plate. He ends the argument for the DH.

Add Randy Johnson to that list, as well.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIa8qBbYK2Y

You try being that tall and not looking like a fool to cover the plate...but I am not seeing the problem, I just see entertainment, not like he doesn't get the joy of going back out there the next inning and making the other pitcher look the fool.

Pirates wrote:

Mariners wrote: 1) Pitchers that can hit are clearly the exception, not the rule. Is it really worth watching pitchers flail away all season just for that one chance that one of them is going to come through and get a meaningful hit? I would personally rather watch David Ortiz, Edgar Martinez and Frank Thomas types provide meaningful hits all season long.

Aren't those guys the exceptions as well?

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?p ... &players=0

Not really an inspiring list outside of a few.

Anymore it's just a spot for a bench bat or somebody that has a nagging injury so they can rest their legs.

It's not real baseball. Pitching is a taxing job, but these guys are professional athletes that play just every fifth game, usually not for all of it.
.258/.286/.470

Wanna guess whose numbers those are? MadBum. Dude put up a .212 ISO! Oh yea, can't forget Rick Ankiel either. If he had spent his first career without a bat, do we get the cool story about his second career?

Ortiz, Martinez, Thome, etc. don't lose jobs without the DH, they're just forced to take playing defense seriously, because it's a two way game. Another reason why it's superior to golf and football, and why no analogy really works with this situation.

Pirates wrote:

Mariners wrote: Versus watching this group hit?

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?p ... &players=0

I'd rather watch the guys from your list hit.

In addition, a lot of those guys on your list played in the field, as well. Not very many guys these days, if any, that are solely a DH. Martinez even logged time at 1b and catcher last season.

Many AL teams use the position to rotate position players through on off days so they can still hit but get a break from playing in the field.

That's fine if you'd rather watch them hit, but the guys you listed are all-time greats and are the exception, not the rule. Most DHs are just sort of average/above average hitters, and you wouldn't notice them missing from your favorite team's lineup -- unless you had to replace them with a pitcher.

Not just "them" (being Edgar, Ortiz or THomas), I'd rather watch any of those guys on the fangraph DH list hit rather than pitchers.

Which is the point. Even adding a league average hitter to a lineup in place of the pitcher is a good move offensively.

Hey, I can understand you guys like the strategy it adds to the game in the NL when it forces the Manager to make moves when that spot in the lineup comes up. Really though, watching pitchers hit the rest of the time is one of the worst things in baseball.

Mariners wrote:

Pirates wrote:

Mariners wrote: Versus watching this group hit?

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?p ... &players=0

I'd rather watch the guys from your list hit.

In addition, a lot of those guys on your list played in the field, as well. Not very many guys these days, if any, that are solely a DH. Martinez even logged time at 1b and catcher last season.

Many AL teams use the position to rotate position players through on off days so they can still hit but get a break from playing in the field.

That's fine if you'd rather watch them hit, but the guys you listed are all-time greats and are the exception, not the rule. Most DHs are just sort of average/above average hitters, and you wouldn't notice them missing from your favorite team's lineup -- unless you had to replace them with a pitcher.

Not just "them" (being Edgar, Ortiz or THomas), I'd rather watch any of those guys on the fangraph DH list hit rather than pitchers.

Which is the point. Even adding a league average hitter to a lineup in place of the pitcher is a good move offensively.

Hey, I can understand you guys like the strategy it adds to the game in the NL when it forces the Manager to make moves when that spot in the lineup comes up. Really though, watching pitchers hit the rest of the time is one of the worst things in baseball.

Maybe you should just watch recordings of home run derbies instead of games. Then you won't have to watch weak hitting catchers and middle infielders either.

Nationals wrote:Watching some footy...I'll participate.

Honorable Mention:
Kyle Hendricks, Mark Trumbo, Danny Santana, Jonathan Schoop, Derek Norris

1. David Dahl
2. Michael Pineda
3. Trevor Bauer
4. Josh Harrison
5. J.D. Martinez
6. #3
7. Dellin Betances
8. Daniel Robertson
9. Kohl Stewart
10. Stephen Piscotty

Still young, but the ceilings remain huge, and the floors are now very strong. #3 will be either Rodon, Tomas, Castillo, or Schwarber...so #6 seems like solid placement.

Honorable Mention:
Kyle Hendricks, Mark Trumbo, Jonathan Schoop, Derek Norris, Dilson Herrera, Grant Holmes

1. David Dahl
2. Michael Pineda
3. Trevor Bauer
4. Josh Harrison
5. J.D. Martinez
6. Dellin Betances
7. Steven Matz
8. Daniel Robertson
9. Kohl Stewart
10. Stephen Piscotty

Orioles wrote:

Pirates wrote:

Mariners wrote: 1) Pitchers that can hit are clearly the exception, not the rule. Is it really worth watching pitchers flail away all season just for that one chance that one of them is going to come through and get a meaningful hit? I would personally rather watch David Ortiz, Edgar Martinez and Frank Thomas types provide meaningful hits all season long.

Aren't those guys the exceptions as well?

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?p ... &players=0

Not really an inspiring list outside of a few.

Anymore it's just a spot for a bench bat or somebody that has a nagging injury so they can rest their legs.

It's not real baseball. Pitching is a taxing job, but these guys are professional athletes that play just every fifth game, usually not for all of it.
.258/.286/.470

Wanna guess whose numbers those are? MadBum. Dude put up a .212 ISO! Oh yea, can't forget Rick Ankiel either. If he had spent his first career without a bat, do we get the cool story about his second career?

Ortiz, Martinez, Thome, etc. don't lose jobs without the DH, they're just forced to take playing defense seriously, because it's a two way game. Another reason why it's superior to golf and football, and why no analogy really works with this situation.

Watching Bartolo Colon swing a bat is not real baseball. I'm not sure it can be considered baseball at all. Watching most pitchers swing a bat could be defined as "bad baseball".

Yes, MadBum is the exception. Felix is pretty good too. There always are a handful of pitchers that retain some ability to hit, but I don't think that outweighs the vast majority of pitchers performances at the plate.

If MadBum was in the AL, he could DH on days he wasn't pitching!

Orioles wrote:Maybe you should just watch recordings of home run derbies instead of games. Then you won't have to watch weak hitting catchers and middle infielders either.

Nice addition to the discussion. Very relevant.