Gonna give my opinion for everyone on the ballot - I tend to be a little more lenient then a lot of people - but let's have some fun with this:
ï Brady Anderson - oh hell no
ï Harold Baines - no
ï Rod Beck - have to say no, but we'll miss you Rod, RIP!
ï Bert Blyleven - hell yes, I'm not even sure why this is a debate still, hopefully a weaker ballot will get him in
ï Dave Concepcion - close but no, new era SS's make him look a lot worse
ï Andre Dawson - no, one of the most overrated players in baseball history
ï Shawon Dunston - seriously?
ï Chuck Finley - maybe the Hall of Fame for getting your ass kicked by your absurdly hot wife
ï Travis Fryman - I remember I had his 1st print Stadium Club card, it was worth a lot of money until he started sucking at baseball
ï Rich "Goose" Gossage - 100%, another that I get confused about, defined what a closer is for the new generation
ï Tommy John - close but no
ï David Justice - not close but no - but I think people do forget just how awesome he was for a few years
ï Chuck Knoblauch - same as Justice
ï Don Mattingly - close, but I say yes - not only were Donnie's batting #'s close to Hall worthy, he's also one of the 3-4 best fielding first basemen of all time, of course I'm totally biased here, but I think he does not get his due
ï Mark McGwire - I would like to see how a Hall vote goes for some other steroid generation hitters here before I say yes
ï Jack Morris - truly hurts me to say no because I LOVED Jack, but he's just not there - unfortunate, this guy was one of the last true warrior pitchers
ï Dale Murphy - I actually say yes here - I think one of the criteria is to be one of the dominant players of your generation - and people forget just how amazing Dale was - back to back MVP's, and very few, if any, of's were better from '78-'87 - he had a precipitous fall off for sure, but he was an utter force on the field for the better part of a decade...if it wasn't for those last 6-7 years when he was playing through agonizing pain, his #'s work...
ï Robb Nen - if he had played 3-4 more years, no question, I say no because he just did not have sustained excellence
ï Dave Parker - no, but he was a hell of a player
ï Tim Raines - absolutely no question - his career #'s are off the charts, and he and Rickey were a leadoff revolution all their own - he was terrifying at the plate...
ï Jim Rice - absolutely for the same reasons as Dale Murphy, he was simply one of the best players in the game for the better of a decade
ï Jose Rijo - no, but a very nice player
ï Lee Smith - no, no sustained excellence - a nice long term player, but only 3 years of dominance, all told
ï Todd Stottlemyre - he should throw a party that his name is on this list - whoever nominated him should have their vote revoked
ï Alan Trammell - the short answer is no, but he was a hell of a player
I think this is the year that people who SHOULD be in, but aren't, have their best shot.
To recap, Zalaski votes in:
Bert Blyleven
Goose Gossage
Don Mattingly
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Jim Rice
2008 HOF
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Yankees
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Nils, the answer to your questions is: "Yes"
But this is a tremendously debateable subject that no one appears to want to debate. Everyone can debate dumb college football crap, a sport decided by people with money, but don't care about the Hall of Fame that this league is actually about.
The problem could be the age of the people in this league - I'm sure the baby's around here (and there are still a ton of you), still have no clue how good the likes of Murphy, Mattingly, Rice, Blyleven, Gossage, and Raines were - considering their best years occurred when you were 2 or 3 - thus having absolutely no basis for your opinions.
I figured some of the golden oldies would have interest in this topic...I was apparently wrong...
But this is a tremendously debateable subject that no one appears to want to debate. Everyone can debate dumb college football crap, a sport decided by people with money, but don't care about the Hall of Fame that this league is actually about.
The problem could be the age of the people in this league - I'm sure the baby's around here (and there are still a ton of you), still have no clue how good the likes of Murphy, Mattingly, Rice, Blyleven, Gossage, and Raines were - considering their best years occurred when you were 2 or 3 - thus having absolutely no basis for your opinions.
I figured some of the golden oldies would have interest in this topic...I was apparently wrong...
ï Brady Anderson - oh hell no
ï Rod Beck - have to say no, but we'll miss you Rod, RIP!
ï Chuck Finley - maybe the Hall of Fame for getting your ass kicked by your absurdly hot wife
ï David Justice - not close but no - but I think people do forget just how awesome he was for a few years
ï Chuck Knoblauch - same as Justice
ï Mark McGwire - I would like to see how a Hall vote goes for some other steroid generation hitters here before I say yes
ï Robb Nen - if he had played 3-4 more years, no question, I say no because he just did not have sustained excellence
I think those are the only ones I ever actually saw play a baseball game. Others I'm familiar with, but I think if you never saw a guy a play, you don't get a vote on his HOF credentials. Of this group that I know, I give a big yes to Big Mac and a maybe for David Justice. By the time I really started to notice him he was passed his prime so I don't know. The rest are no.
ï Rod Beck - have to say no, but we'll miss you Rod, RIP!
ï Chuck Finley - maybe the Hall of Fame for getting your ass kicked by your absurdly hot wife
ï David Justice - not close but no - but I think people do forget just how awesome he was for a few years
ï Chuck Knoblauch - same as Justice
ï Mark McGwire - I would like to see how a Hall vote goes for some other steroid generation hitters here before I say yes
ï Robb Nen - if he had played 3-4 more years, no question, I say no because he just did not have sustained excellence
I think those are the only ones I ever actually saw play a baseball game. Others I'm familiar with, but I think if you never saw a guy a play, you don't get a vote on his HOF credentials. Of this group that I know, I give a big yes to Big Mac and a maybe for David Justice. By the time I really started to notice him he was passed his prime so I don't know. The rest are no.
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Re: 2008 HOF
ï Brady Anderson - No. unless they open a new wing for best mutton chops
ï Harold Baines - No. DH w/ < 3,000 H, < 400 HR, .289/.356/.465 doesn't get it done.
ï Rod Beck - No. see: Anderson, Brady (above)
ï Bert Blyleven - Yes. Not close. Won a lot of games for mediocre to bad teams, and career 287 W, 3700+ K, 3.31 ERA pretty impressive. Check out his 1973 season for the 81-81 Twins: 20-17, 40 GS, 25 CG, 9 SO, 325.0 IP, 296 H, 258 K, 67 BB, 2.52 ERA, 1.12 WHIP. Ridiculous.
ï Dave Concepcion - No. 9 AS games and 5 gold gloves not enough to overcome career .267/.322/.357 line
ï Andre Dawson - Yes. Barely. .279/.323/.482, 2774 H, 438 HR, 9 ASG, 1977 ROY, 1987 MVP, 8 GG (mostly in CF I think). Fringy b/c despite the long career he failed to reach the 3,000 H/ 500 HR benchmarks, but does have 1500+ RBI and 300+ SB. I put him in based on being one of the best hitters in the league for a 10 year period (same reason I'd put Rice in). From 1979-1989 he finished in the top 10 in: MVP voting (4 - incl. #1 in '87 and #2 in '81 + '83), BA (4), SLG (7), OPS (5), R (4), H (6 - 1st in '83), TB (7 - 1st in '83 + '87, 2nd in '81 + '88), HR (5 - 1st in '87), RBI (5 - 1st in '87). Hawk's in for me. I can't penalize him too much for his bad and injury-plagued seasons later in his career.
ï Shawon Dunston - No.
ï Chuck Finley - No.
ï Travis Fryman - No. I always forgot if it was Fryman or Robin Ventura who rushed a 40+ y/o Nolan Ryan and caught a beatdown. I think it was Ventura.
ï Rich "Goose" Gossage - Yes.
ï Tommy John - No. But maybe if Dr. James Andrews and his predecessors get in. TJ's surgery changed the sport forever.
ï David Justice - No.
ï Chuck Knoblauch - No. Remember when he forgot how to throw? That was pretty weird.
ï Don Mattingly - No. He basically had a very good 4 year run, in which he was one of the best hitters in his league, but other than that he wasn't a dominant hitter over a significant period. His career totals come up way short for a 1B. .307/.358/.471, 2153 H, 222 HR, 1099 RBI. Eh.
ï Mark McGwire - No. But probably agree with Z. Depends on how other steroid-era sluggers are treated.
ï Jack Morris - Yes. For the same reasons I'll think Schilling will eventually merit consideration. 3 20+ W seasons, a handful of very good years where he was among the league's best. The WS performances w/ MIN and DET put him over the top for me. 2-0, 2 CG, 2.00 ERA w/ DET in '84 and 2-0, 1.17 ERA w/ MIN in '91.
ï Dale Murphy - Yes. Barely. Same reasons as Z.
ï Robb Nen - No.
ï Dave Parker - No.
ï Tim Raines - Yes. "Rock" is in w/ 800+ SB, 1300+ BB and a .294/.385/.425 career averages.
ï Jim Rice - Yes. Was one of the AL's most feared hitters for a 10 year period (1975-1985), during which he averaged .300+ BA, 30+ HR, 100+ RBI. His 1978 was downright ridiculous: .315/.370/.600, 213 H, 121 R, 46 HR, 139 RBI, 406 TB. Led the AL in TB 4 times and HR 3 times during that stretch. This should be his year.
ï Jose Rijo - No. Had a few very good years with Cincinnati, wasn't good enough for long enough to merit a plaque.
ï Lee Smith - No.
ï Todd Stottlemyre - No.
ï Alan Trammell - No.
My 7 yes votes:
Bruce Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Goose Gossage
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Jim Rice
ï Harold Baines - No. DH w/ < 3,000 H, < 400 HR, .289/.356/.465 doesn't get it done.
ï Rod Beck - No. see: Anderson, Brady (above)
ï Bert Blyleven - Yes. Not close. Won a lot of games for mediocre to bad teams, and career 287 W, 3700+ K, 3.31 ERA pretty impressive. Check out his 1973 season for the 81-81 Twins: 20-17, 40 GS, 25 CG, 9 SO, 325.0 IP, 296 H, 258 K, 67 BB, 2.52 ERA, 1.12 WHIP. Ridiculous.
ï Dave Concepcion - No. 9 AS games and 5 gold gloves not enough to overcome career .267/.322/.357 line
ï Andre Dawson - Yes. Barely. .279/.323/.482, 2774 H, 438 HR, 9 ASG, 1977 ROY, 1987 MVP, 8 GG (mostly in CF I think). Fringy b/c despite the long career he failed to reach the 3,000 H/ 500 HR benchmarks, but does have 1500+ RBI and 300+ SB. I put him in based on being one of the best hitters in the league for a 10 year period (same reason I'd put Rice in). From 1979-1989 he finished in the top 10 in: MVP voting (4 - incl. #1 in '87 and #2 in '81 + '83), BA (4), SLG (7), OPS (5), R (4), H (6 - 1st in '83), TB (7 - 1st in '83 + '87, 2nd in '81 + '88), HR (5 - 1st in '87), RBI (5 - 1st in '87). Hawk's in for me. I can't penalize him too much for his bad and injury-plagued seasons later in his career.
ï Shawon Dunston - No.
ï Chuck Finley - No.
. Haha. What he said.maybe the Hall of Fame for getting your ass kicked by your absurdly hot wife
ï Travis Fryman - No. I always forgot if it was Fryman or Robin Ventura who rushed a 40+ y/o Nolan Ryan and caught a beatdown. I think it was Ventura.
ï Rich "Goose" Gossage - Yes.
ï Tommy John - No. But maybe if Dr. James Andrews and his predecessors get in. TJ's surgery changed the sport forever.
ï David Justice - No.
ï Chuck Knoblauch - No. Remember when he forgot how to throw? That was pretty weird.
ï Don Mattingly - No. He basically had a very good 4 year run, in which he was one of the best hitters in his league, but other than that he wasn't a dominant hitter over a significant period. His career totals come up way short for a 1B. .307/.358/.471, 2153 H, 222 HR, 1099 RBI. Eh.
ï Mark McGwire - No. But probably agree with Z. Depends on how other steroid-era sluggers are treated.
ï Jack Morris - Yes. For the same reasons I'll think Schilling will eventually merit consideration. 3 20+ W seasons, a handful of very good years where he was among the league's best. The WS performances w/ MIN and DET put him over the top for me. 2-0, 2 CG, 2.00 ERA w/ DET in '84 and 2-0, 1.17 ERA w/ MIN in '91.
ï Dale Murphy - Yes. Barely. Same reasons as Z.
ï Robb Nen - No.
ï Dave Parker - No.
ï Tim Raines - Yes. "Rock" is in w/ 800+ SB, 1300+ BB and a .294/.385/.425 career averages.
ï Jim Rice - Yes. Was one of the AL's most feared hitters for a 10 year period (1975-1985), during which he averaged .300+ BA, 30+ HR, 100+ RBI. His 1978 was downright ridiculous: .315/.370/.600, 213 H, 121 R, 46 HR, 139 RBI, 406 TB. Led the AL in TB 4 times and HR 3 times during that stretch. This should be his year.
ï Jose Rijo - No. Had a few very good years with Cincinnati, wasn't good enough for long enough to merit a plaque.
ï Lee Smith - No.
ï Todd Stottlemyre - No.
ï Alan Trammell - No.
My 7 yes votes:
Bruce Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Goose Gossage
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Jim Rice
2023 GM Totals: 1780 W - 1460 L | 0.549 wpct | 89-73 (avg 162 G record)
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Yankees
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Oh, how to respond to your ignorance Bren:
74th All-Time in MVP Shares - ahead of Dave Winfield, Bill Dickey, Pie Traynor, Enos Slaughter, Ryne Sandberg, Luke Appling, Duke Snider, Tony Gwynn, Gary Carter, and Joe Cronin.
2nd Most GG's for a 1b of All-Time
Career OPS+ of 127
Did injuries derail his career? For sure...but his overall success, for what he was able to battle through, goes WAY beyond just "mystique" and "desperation"...
2,153 hits
442 2b's
588/444 bb/k
1,007 runs scored
As I said, certainly not "Absolutely HOF worthy," but to say he's just "mystique" and "desperation" really gives no credit to what he was able to accomplish on crappy teams with a horrendously busted back...
He has #'s that are better then some people in the Hall of Fame, and he's one of the best fielders in the history of his position - that should certainly count for something - he's worthy of HOF debate...
74th All-Time in MVP Shares - ahead of Dave Winfield, Bill Dickey, Pie Traynor, Enos Slaughter, Ryne Sandberg, Luke Appling, Duke Snider, Tony Gwynn, Gary Carter, and Joe Cronin.
2nd Most GG's for a 1b of All-Time
Career OPS+ of 127
Did injuries derail his career? For sure...but his overall success, for what he was able to battle through, goes WAY beyond just "mystique" and "desperation"...
2,153 hits
442 2b's
588/444 bb/k
1,007 runs scored
As I said, certainly not "Absolutely HOF worthy," but to say he's just "mystique" and "desperation" really gives no credit to what he was able to accomplish on crappy teams with a horrendously busted back...
He has #'s that are better then some people in the Hall of Fame, and he's one of the best fielders in the history of his position - that should certainly count for something - he's worthy of HOF debate...
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Yankees
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Absolutely - there's no question here. You figure, Robinson lost a lot of his early years because of the color barrier - and a couple (one?) of his prime years in the minors just to make sure he could handle playing pro ball.
You have to look at him like you would look at Ichiro - inarguably they are going to be two players who deserve to be known among the greatest players of their respective generations, but just won't have the pure #'s because of specific limitations.
Jackie's pure #'s are awesome - a .883 career ops, a .409 career obp, a .311 career ba, a career OPS+ of 132, 6 All-Star appearances, Top 20 in MVP voting 8 times, Top 10 in MVP 4 times, and had a year where he didn't get Top 20 votes when he had a .918 ops.
In 10 years (including the last two he was worn down by life - he shouldered a pretty monster load) he had 200 sb's, and 1,500 hits as a top of the order hitter on a stacked lineup.
And, like I said, he did not get to play at 23, 24, 25, 26, and 27 - years when many people put up some monster seasons.
To shoulder what Jackie had to shoulder, to do it with the grace and humility that he did it with, and to be one of, if not the best SS in the National League for those 10 years is just astounding.
Anyone who thinks Jackie doesn't deserve to be in is insane...or racist...
Same goes for Ichiro (who, by the way, has 1,600 career hits, 782 career runs, 7 AS appearances, 7 GG's and 272 sb's in 7 seasons!!!!!!!)...
You have to look at him like you would look at Ichiro - inarguably they are going to be two players who deserve to be known among the greatest players of their respective generations, but just won't have the pure #'s because of specific limitations.
Jackie's pure #'s are awesome - a .883 career ops, a .409 career obp, a .311 career ba, a career OPS+ of 132, 6 All-Star appearances, Top 20 in MVP voting 8 times, Top 10 in MVP 4 times, and had a year where he didn't get Top 20 votes when he had a .918 ops.
In 10 years (including the last two he was worn down by life - he shouldered a pretty monster load) he had 200 sb's, and 1,500 hits as a top of the order hitter on a stacked lineup.
And, like I said, he did not get to play at 23, 24, 25, 26, and 27 - years when many people put up some monster seasons.
To shoulder what Jackie had to shoulder, to do it with the grace and humility that he did it with, and to be one of, if not the best SS in the National League for those 10 years is just astounding.
Anyone who thinks Jackie doesn't deserve to be in is insane...or racist...
Same goes for Ichiro (who, by the way, has 1,600 career hits, 782 career runs, 7 AS appearances, 7 GG's and 272 sb's in 7 seasons!!!!!!!)...
Yawn...
First of all, what the fuck is an MVP share? (and seriously.. Sandberg? You're going to try to make a case by comparing Mattingly to a 2b?)
Secondly... you're actually going to mention GG's? Seriously? The most obviously meaningless award out there? Good job there chief.
Wow, a 127 career OPS+!?! Whoohoo! That puts him in company with... well, let's see... oh, he doesn't even qualify to appear among the lcareer leaders because he had so few AB's! What a shock! But that career 127 OPS puts him in the company of Dwight Evans, Ellis Burks, Tim Salmon... among active players you've got Ryan Klesko! Oooh, now there's a great hitter... 27 ACTIVE hitters have a higher Career OPS+ than 127.
Sure mattingly has better per year numbers (i.e. career OPS+) than some in the Hall. The VAST majority of those players were middle infielders or players at positions that weren't so offensively critical (like Catcher). Then you've got the guys that played for 20+ seasons and got in on counting stats or sheer longevity. Then there are the guys that got in on nostalgia and were inducted 30... 40... even almost 70 years ago!
Mattingly didn't have a long enough career. he had a couple great seasons but was otherwise a mediocre 1b. I don't care if it's because he had a bad back or because Bud Selig ran over his dog, he didn't produce. Period.
The only reason Mattingly gets any Hall discussion is because he's a Yankee. Yankee fans want to put him in based on 4 years of great play and a whole lot of might-have-beens. if you Want to put him in the Hall of Could-Have-Beens, go right ahead, he can go in the inaugural class with Len Bias and Tony Conigliaro.
First of all, what the fuck is an MVP share? (and seriously.. Sandberg? You're going to try to make a case by comparing Mattingly to a 2b?)
Secondly... you're actually going to mention GG's? Seriously? The most obviously meaningless award out there? Good job there chief.
Wow, a 127 career OPS+!?! Whoohoo! That puts him in company with... well, let's see... oh, he doesn't even qualify to appear among the lcareer leaders because he had so few AB's! What a shock! But that career 127 OPS puts him in the company of Dwight Evans, Ellis Burks, Tim Salmon... among active players you've got Ryan Klesko! Oooh, now there's a great hitter... 27 ACTIVE hitters have a higher Career OPS+ than 127.
Sure mattingly has better per year numbers (i.e. career OPS+) than some in the Hall. The VAST majority of those players were middle infielders or players at positions that weren't so offensively critical (like Catcher). Then you've got the guys that played for 20+ seasons and got in on counting stats or sheer longevity. Then there are the guys that got in on nostalgia and were inducted 30... 40... even almost 70 years ago!
Mattingly didn't have a long enough career. he had a couple great seasons but was otherwise a mediocre 1b. I don't care if it's because he had a bad back or because Bud Selig ran over his dog, he didn't produce. Period.
The only reason Mattingly gets any Hall discussion is because he's a Yankee. Yankee fans want to put him in based on 4 years of great play and a whole lot of might-have-beens. if you Want to put him in the Hall of Could-Have-Beens, go right ahead, he can go in the inaugural class with Len Bias and Tony Conigliaro.
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Yankees
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That's using GG's as the only relevant stat on fielding that I care to dig about - you ask ANYONE who the best 1b's they've ever seen are, and the only consistent responses you get are Keith Hernandez and Don Mattingly...
And, actually, many of Mattingly's #'s compare favorably to OF's that are in the HOF...
And, actually, many of Mattingly's #'s compare favorably to OF's that are in the HOF...
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Padres
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I have seen most of this guys play - and those I didn't see in person I saw on TV. A number of these players were truly stars ...
Three, in particular were favorites of mine. Dale Murphy was by far the BEST player in the National League in 1982 and 1983; Jack Morris was the ace of two world championship teams '84 Tigers and '91 Twins); Don Mattingly was really outstanding with the glove - second best fielding 1B I ever saw behind only Keith Hernandez - and before he got hurt he was a good hitter.
With Mattingly after six years, thereÃs nothing left, not a single season worthy of the All-Star team and only one ('93) that even put him arguably in the top half of the league at his position. If he hadnÃt gotten hurt perhaps we'd seen a true hall of famer . . . but he did. Like Mattingly, Murphy stood on the mountaintop for only a brief moment. Damn he was good for a while - only Ripken and Yount approached him among position players in those years - but he just wasn't sustained. Morris was the epitome of what Kenny Williams is looking for now ... true grit - a grinder. He was also the beneficiary of teams that scored runs. They were truly stars but I do not think their careers merit the hall of Fame.
I would vote for only four players to go in:
1. Goose Gossage
2. Tim Raines
3. Jim Rice
4. Bert Blyleven
If necessary I will indicate later why these four should be in ...
Three, in particular were favorites of mine. Dale Murphy was by far the BEST player in the National League in 1982 and 1983; Jack Morris was the ace of two world championship teams '84 Tigers and '91 Twins); Don Mattingly was really outstanding with the glove - second best fielding 1B I ever saw behind only Keith Hernandez - and before he got hurt he was a good hitter.
With Mattingly after six years, thereÃs nothing left, not a single season worthy of the All-Star team and only one ('93) that even put him arguably in the top half of the league at his position. If he hadnÃt gotten hurt perhaps we'd seen a true hall of famer . . . but he did. Like Mattingly, Murphy stood on the mountaintop for only a brief moment. Damn he was good for a while - only Ripken and Yount approached him among position players in those years - but he just wasn't sustained. Morris was the epitome of what Kenny Williams is looking for now ... true grit - a grinder. He was also the beneficiary of teams that scored runs. They were truly stars but I do not think their careers merit the hall of Fame.
I would vote for only four players to go in:
1. Goose Gossage
2. Tim Raines
3. Jim Rice
4. Bert Blyleven
If necessary I will indicate later why these four should be in ...
I actually thought about whether the doc should be in the Hall and I can't say I'm opposed to the idea.
That said though, John was willing to try what must have seemed like a very radical surgical procedure which, if he hadn't given it a try and had it work as well as it did, how long would it have been before another pitcher was willing to try?
That plus a 26 season career, 288 career wins (.555 win rate) and a 3.34 career era.
That said though, John was willing to try what must have seemed like a very radical surgical procedure which, if he hadn't given it a try and had it work as well as it did, how long would it have been before another pitcher was willing to try?
That plus a 26 season career, 288 career wins (.555 win rate) and a 3.34 career era.
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Padres
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I was a huge Tommy John fan as he came over to the Al Lopez led White Sox from the Indians ... TJ in his own words about his surgery:RedSox wrote:I actually thought about whether the doc should be in the Hall and I can't say I'm opposed to the idea.
That said though, John was willing to try what must have seemed like a very radical surgical procedure which, if he hadn't given it a try and had it work as well as it did, how long would it have been before another pitcher was willing to try?
I was pitching for the Dodgers in 1974, and I was 13-3 when the ligament was torn. Dr. Jobe told me what he was going to have to do. No pitcher ever had that kind of operation before. There was-no downside risk, since Dr. Jobe told me "If you don't have it done, you'll never pitch again."
WHAT ABOUT COOPERSTOWN?:
The 288-game winner received 125 votes in the recent Hall of Fame balloting. John isn't overly optimistic about his chances.
"My problem is that I pitched too long," he said. "The thing that's going to hold me back are the strikeouts. The writers want domination, not groundouts."
For example, while his 85-MPH fastball didn't blow opponents away, John relied on his sinker to induce groundball outs. A three-time 20-game winner, John racked up just 78 Ks in 265 innings pitched while going 22-9 for the Yankees in 1980.
He often says that Moyer and Maddux won't even get drafted now ...
Last edited by Padres on Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Nationals
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I'm not opposed to putting Jobe in either.RedSox wrote:I actually thought about whether the doc should be in the Hall and I can't say I'm opposed to the idea.
That said though, John was willing to try what must have seemed like a very radical surgical procedure which, if he hadn't given it a try and had it work as well as it did, how long would it have been before another pitcher was willing to try?
That plus a 26 season career, 288 career wins (.555 win rate) and a 3.34 career era.
And I am not altogether opposed to John going in on his own merit (and he wasn't a bad announcer, from what I remember from my wee youth)
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Padres
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Couple other Tommy John memories.
Though he finished 2nd in ERA twice in his 26 year career, it was 1967 that he was part of a staff that had 3 SP in the top 5 in ERA:
Horlen-CHW 2.06
Peters-CHW 2.28
Siebert-CLE 2.38
John-CHW 2.47
Merritt-MIN 2.53
Tommy John was one of the best control pitchers of his era, but on June 15, 1968, he plunked four Detroit batters, tying an American League record. It was the game that resulted in his first injury:
In 1968, I was 10-5 with a 1.98 ERA and pitching against the Tigers in August. A 3-2 pitch slipped out of my hand and sailed over Dick McAuliffe's head. I didn't throw at him, but McAuliffe was yelling at me as he went to first, and he charged the mound.
My first thought was to tackle him. McAuliffe drove his knee into my left shoulder and separated it. Dr. Levinthal (the White Sox physician) wanted to operate, but I got a second opinion. The white Sox were quite upset about it, since no one did that in those days. They examined my shoulder in spring training in '69 and said it was good and tight.
Great quote:
"If that's any indication of the aging process, I can't wait until I'm 40." TJ, after he pitched a five-hit shutout on his 39th birthday in 1982
20 years later in a July 27, 1988 game, he made three errors during the course of one play. This might have been the only time that happened in a big league game. With the Brewers' Jim Gantner on first base and one out, Jeffrey Leonard grounded to John. He bobbled the ball, then threw it into right field. The relay from the outfield came to him, and he again bobbled the ball then threw it past the catcher. Both Leonard and Gantner scored during the play. The New York Yankees still won 16-3.
Here is a good visual of how long his career lasted:
It's hard to believe that his career lasted 26 years. He broke in as a 20-year-old rookie on the 1963 Cleveland Indians, when 43-year-old Early Wynn was still pitching. Sudden Sam McDowell was also a 20-year-old pitcher on the team that year. It was the year that Pete Rose was a rookie.
Sadly, John stuck around until he was 46 years old, trying to get to the magical 300-win plateau, but he fell 12 victories short. By the second-half of 1988, he was a poor pitcher, posting a 5.69 ERA after July. In 1989, the lefty went 2-7 in 10 starts before he was released on May 30, after a fifth straight outing where he allowed five runs or more. That was the rookie year Ken Griffey and Juan Gonzalez. The Yankees manager for the last part of 1989, Bucky Dent, was nine years younger than John.
Though he finished 2nd in ERA twice in his 26 year career, it was 1967 that he was part of a staff that had 3 SP in the top 5 in ERA:
Horlen-CHW 2.06
Peters-CHW 2.28
Siebert-CLE 2.38
John-CHW 2.47
Merritt-MIN 2.53
Tommy John was one of the best control pitchers of his era, but on June 15, 1968, he plunked four Detroit batters, tying an American League record. It was the game that resulted in his first injury:
In 1968, I was 10-5 with a 1.98 ERA and pitching against the Tigers in August. A 3-2 pitch slipped out of my hand and sailed over Dick McAuliffe's head. I didn't throw at him, but McAuliffe was yelling at me as he went to first, and he charged the mound.
My first thought was to tackle him. McAuliffe drove his knee into my left shoulder and separated it. Dr. Levinthal (the White Sox physician) wanted to operate, but I got a second opinion. The white Sox were quite upset about it, since no one did that in those days. They examined my shoulder in spring training in '69 and said it was good and tight.
Great quote:
"If that's any indication of the aging process, I can't wait until I'm 40." TJ, after he pitched a five-hit shutout on his 39th birthday in 1982
20 years later in a July 27, 1988 game, he made three errors during the course of one play. This might have been the only time that happened in a big league game. With the Brewers' Jim Gantner on first base and one out, Jeffrey Leonard grounded to John. He bobbled the ball, then threw it into right field. The relay from the outfield came to him, and he again bobbled the ball then threw it past the catcher. Both Leonard and Gantner scored during the play. The New York Yankees still won 16-3.
Here is a good visual of how long his career lasted:
It's hard to believe that his career lasted 26 years. He broke in as a 20-year-old rookie on the 1963 Cleveland Indians, when 43-year-old Early Wynn was still pitching. Sudden Sam McDowell was also a 20-year-old pitcher on the team that year. It was the year that Pete Rose was a rookie.
Sadly, John stuck around until he was 46 years old, trying to get to the magical 300-win plateau, but he fell 12 victories short. By the second-half of 1988, he was a poor pitcher, posting a 5.69 ERA after July. In 1989, the lefty went 2-7 in 10 starts before he was released on May 30, after a fifth straight outing where he allowed five runs or more. That was the rookie year Ken Griffey and Juan Gonzalez. The Yankees manager for the last part of 1989, Bucky Dent, was nine years younger than John.
