Hall of Fame

[Yankees]

Great point Bren...and fantastic job not taking that to an absurd-not-even-relevant extreme!

[Giants]

First of all, that's a fallacious argument, it's logically impossible to prove a negative, so of course one can't say for sure that Bonds or anyone didn't use PEDs before a certain date (for instance, Bren, prove to us you have never molested a child).

What I was saying is that there is a general consensus even among the most ardent Jack Morris voter that there was a before with Barry Bonds, in fact Game of Shadows pegs the date at 2000 (and names Ken Griffey as the witness to this fact). If you want to argue that Bonds started using during his Serra high school days that's lonely company, but no one can provide you proof positive that you're wrong. Let's ignore that Bonds was in high school from 1979-1982 and A-Rod was in high school from 1990-1993.

Is Bonds' word really worth less than Pete Rose's? Maybe but so what? I'd probably take Richard Nixon's word over Gordon Liddy's, but I'm not making any decisions relying primarily on either.

If a child molester tells you they never molested children before 2000, do you take them at their word? No, because they've proven themselves to be untrustworthy.
Bonds cheated. Period. And when he was caught, he lied, lied, lied to try to cover it up. He's a piece of shit who has no place in the Hall and the only reason you're arguing otherwise is because you're a homer, just like how you buried your head in the sand all those years trying to claim he wasn't juicing.

This might be a good point if it was Bonds' word we were asked to take, but it's not. We're given the word of the reporters/investigators who made it their life's work to nail Bonds. As far as I can tell, Bonds is still using a Clintonian defense, he hasn't taken a position on this issue one way or the other.

[Royals]

This might be a good point if it was Bonds' word we were asked to take, but it's not. We're given the word of the reporters/investigators who made it their life's work to nail Bonds. As far as I can tell, Bonds is still using a Clintonian defense, he hasn't taken a position on this issue one way or the other.

"No. I don't have to [use steroids]. I mean, I'm a good enough ballplayer as it is. I don't need to be any better. I can't get any better at this age." -- June 2002, On the Record with Bob Costas

Bonds is keeping his head down currently, which is smarter than trying to sue MLB like ARod, but he lied about not taking steroids and he lied when he said it was flaxseed oil.

Seriously Jake, do yourself a favor and stop trying to defend him. Nobody is responsible for Barry Bonds' actions except Barry Bonds. He made his choices and he has to live with them.

fantastic job not taking that to an absurd-not-even-relevant extreme!

Z, read Jake's previous post, he's the one who brought up the child molester angle, I just used it to point out the flaw in his thinking.

[Giants]

Taking me back to the old days, just like then you still haven't learned how to read. My point was that Barry Bonds isn't the one saying he started taking steroids in 2000 and not before, in fact you inadvertently proved my point (as I said Bonds hasn't taken a position on the issue). You also proved my point about said child molester, he cannot ever prove that he wasn't molesting children at a certain date (and neither can you or anyone else).

The people who claim there was a before aren't Bonds (who seemingly is still claiming there was a never), they were the people investigating the story like Jeff Pearlman, author of Game of Shadows (the proof text you and everyone else has used as the smoking gun), check out the excerpt here referring to Bonds conversation with Griffey after the 1998 season: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2368395

Bonds' frustration had peaked on Aug. 23 of the previous season [1998 for those of you haven't read the whole thing]. That was the day he crushed a knuckleball from Marlins lefthander Kirt Ojala into the bleachers of Miami's Pro Player Stadium, becoming the first man in major league history to compile 400 home runs and 400 stolen bases.

So if you believe the people who investigated Bonds you must also believe that he got to 400-400 without at the very least the "hardcore stuff". If he was taking the softcore stuff at that point then so were Mays, Aaron, and everyone else.

*Edit, this excerpt says 1999, Bonds is first traced to BALCO in 2000, I'll grant 1999 as a start date it doesn't change the point.

[Royals]

*Edit, this excerpt says 1999, Bonds is first traced to BALCO in 2000, I'll grant 1999 as a start date it doesn't change the point.

The point being Bonds cheated and has no place in the Hall. Period. I know you want to drag it out to other issues. I don't care. Whether Bonds started cheating in 2000, 1999 or 1990 is irrelevant. He cheated, he lied, he filthied up the game and has no place in the Hall of Fame. They shouldn't even let him in as a paying customer. I'm sure you'll keep defending him though and deflecting blame to the media, the Giants, MLB, other players, whoever is convenient. Everyone except the actual responsible party, Barry Bonds. When you cheat and you break the trust that the game is fair, you don't go to the Hall of Fame.

[Giants]

All of this is in response to Stephen's post about Roger/Bonds in and McGwire/Sosa out, and the perils of that reasoning. Not everything is about you...

[Yankees]

Sorry - realize I used Bren's name and then just jumped...I was saying that more broadly...

[Royals]

All of this is in response to Stephen's post about Roger/Bonds in and McGwire/Sosa out, and the perils of that reasoning. Not everything is about you...

It isn't? Gosh I never knew that...
Who said it's about Stephens' post either? This isn't all "in response to Stephen's post about Roger/Bonds in and McGwire/Sosa out". It's a thread started by Z about Bonds et al not getting in. I know you love to narrow down the argument to something irrelevant to try to sound like you're right on a broader point, but the discussion is Bonds et al and the Hall of Fame. Bonds is out and never going to get in because he's a lying, cheating, tainted sack of shit just like Clemens, McGwire and Sosa and it's because of them that guys like Biggio and Bagwell have to deal with baseless accusations and biases.

[Tigers]

All of this is in response to Stephen's post about Roger/Bonds in and McGwire/Sosa out, and the perils of that reasoning. Not everything is about you...

It isn't? Gosh I never knew that...
Who said it's about Stephens' post either? This isn't all "in response to Stephen's post about Roger/Bonds in and McGwire/Sosa out". It's a thread started by Z about Bonds et al not getting in. I know you love to narrow down the argument to something irrelevant to try to sound like you're right on a broader point, but the discussion is Bonds et al and the Hall of Fame. Bonds is out and never going to get in because he's a lying, cheating, tainted sack of shit just like Clemens, McGwire and Sosa and it's because of them that guys like Biggio and Bagwell have to deal with baseless accusations and biases.

Interesting that you see Biggio and Bags as guys that are above reproach regarding the steriod/PED issue? I think those two are great players from the era, but I wouldn't bet the double wide that they were 100% clean throughout their careers either. It is not like they played alongside a guy that was at the heart of the steriod/drug issue.

I'm of the school of thought that I don't think anyone that played during the past 30 years can be written off as clean with 100% certainty. I think there just are too many unknowns regarding this era, drugs and ease of availability for everyone playing that casts ahuge shadow over sports in general during this time frame.

At the end of the day, I think it is best we just recognize the era for what it was.

[Royals]

All of this is in response to Stephen's post about Roger/Bonds in and McGwire/Sosa out, and the perils of that reasoning. Not everything is about you...

It isn't? Gosh I never knew that...
Who said it's about Stephens' post either? This isn't all "in response to Stephen's post about Roger/Bonds in and McGwire/Sosa out". It's a thread started by Z about Bonds et al not getting in. I know you love to narrow down the argument to something irrelevant to try to sound like you're right on a broader point, but the discussion is Bonds et al and the Hall of Fame. Bonds is out and never going to get in because he's a lying, cheating, tainted sack of shit just like Clemens, McGwire and Sosa and it's because of them that guys like Biggio and Bagwell have to deal with baseless accusations and biases.

Interesting that you see Biggio and Bags as guys that are above reproach regarding the steriod/PED issue? I think those two are great players from the era, but I wouldn't bet the double wide that they were 100% clean throughout their careers either. It is not like they played alongside a guy that was at the heart of the steriod/drug issue.

I'm of the school of thought that I don't think anyone that played during the past 30 years can be written off as clean with 100% certainty. I think there just are too many unknowns regarding this era, drugs and ease of availability for everyone playing that casts ahuge shadow over sports in general during this time frame.

At the end of the day, I think it is best we just recognize the era for what it was.

I wouldn't hold up Bagwell or Biggio as saints by any means. No one is above reproach. But there needs to be cause for that reproach and aside from playing with Clemens and Pettite for a few years, what is there to say about them to make anyone think they were using? Jeter played with Arod, Clemens and Pettite for far longer than Bagwell or Biggio did. Admittedly I haven't been as deeply into following every sports tidbit as I used to, so maybe I missed something, but I've never seen anything linking Bagwell or Biggio to PEDs aside from being good players.

[Tigers]

It isn't? Gosh I never knew that...
Who said it's about Stephens' post either? This isn't all "in response to Stephen's post about Roger/Bonds in and McGwire/Sosa out". It's a thread started by Z about Bonds et al not getting in. I know you love to narrow down the argument to something irrelevant to try to sound like you're right on a broader point, but the discussion is Bonds et al and the Hall of Fame. Bonds is out and never going to get in because he's a lying, cheating, tainted sack of shit just like Clemens, McGwire and Sosa and it's because of them that guys like Biggio and Bagwell have to deal with baseless accusations and biases.

Interesting that you see Biggio and Bags as guys that are above reproach regarding the steriod/PED issue? I think those two are great players from the era, but I wouldn't bet the double wide that they were 100% clean throughout their careers either. It is not like they played alongside a guy that was at the heart of the steriod/drug issue.

I'm of the school of thought that I don't think anyone that played during the past 30 years can be written off as clean with 100% certainty. I think there just are too many unknowns regarding this era, drugs and ease of availability for everyone playing that casts ahuge shadow over sports in general during this time frame.

At the end of the day, I think it is best we just recognize the era for what it was.

I wouldn't hold up Bagwell or Biggio as saints by any means. No one is above reproach. But there needs to be cause for that reproach and aside from playing with Clemens and Pettite for a few years, what is there to say about them to make anyone think they were using? Jeter played with Arod, Clemens and Pettite for far longer than Bagwell or Biggio did. Admittedly I haven't been as deeply into following every sports tidbit as I used to, so maybe I missed something, but I've never seen anything linking Bagwell or Biggio to PEDs aside from being good players.

The guy I was thinking of that Biggio and Bags played along side of was Caminiti.

You had stated that Bags and Biggio had to deal with "baseless accusation" because of Bonds, Clemens, McGuire and Sosa.

I think they have to deal with them because of the era in which they played. It wasn't one or two or four players that caused the last 20+ years to be known as the steriod era.......and if rumors are anywhere close to reality, we barely know the tip of the iceberg when it comes to just how rampant PED's were in baseball and sports in general the past 30 years.

It is a sad reality, but I don't think you can give anyone that played and excelled during the past 30 year a "pass" with 100% certainty. PED's were rampant and far too easily available.

[Royals]

Interesting that you see Biggio and Bags as guys that are above reproach regarding the steriod/PED issue? I think those two are great players from the era, but I wouldn't bet the double wide that they were 100% clean throughout their careers either. It is not like they played alongside a guy that was at the heart of the steriod/drug issue.

I'm of the school of thought that I don't think anyone that played during the past 30 years can be written off as clean with 100% certainty. I think there just are too many unknowns regarding this era, drugs and ease of availability for everyone playing that casts ahuge shadow over sports in general during this time frame.

At the end of the day, I think it is best we just recognize the era for what it was.

I wouldn't hold up Bagwell or Biggio as saints by any means. No one is above reproach. But there needs to be cause for that reproach and aside from playing with Clemens and Pettite for a few years, what is there to say about them to make anyone think they were using? Jeter played with Arod, Clemens and Pettite for far longer than Bagwell or Biggio did. Admittedly I haven't been as deeply into following every sports tidbit as I used to, so maybe I missed something, but I've never seen anything linking Bagwell or Biggio to PEDs aside from being good players.

The guy I was thinking of that Biggio and Bags played along side of was Caminiti.

You had stated that Bags and Biggio had to deal with "baseless accusation" because of Bonds, Clemens, McGuire and Sosa.

I think they have to deal with them because of the era in which they played. It wasn't one or two or four players that caused the last 20+ years to be known as the steriod era.......and if rumors are anywhere close to reality, we barely know the tip of the iceberg when it comes to just how rampant PED's were in baseball and sports in general the past 30 years.

It is a sad reality, but I don't think you can give anyone that played and excelled during the past 30 year a "pass" with 100% certainty. PED's were rampant and far too easily available.

ha, I had forgotten about Caminiti... but, association still isn't guilt. And I wouldn't give anyone a pass unconditionally. But playing with a cheater doesn't make you a cheater any more than playing with a racist or a wife-beater make you a racist or wife-beater. We know the likes of Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Clemens, Palmeiro, Caminiti, ARod, Canseco, Ortiz, Ramirez, etc. cheated. Not because they played with someone who was dirty, or because there was a whispering campaign among some of the writers, we have far more firm proof that they cheated. Faceless rumors are nothing to smear a player's career over. If nothing has come up five years after a player's career is over, then the likelihood is low that anything ever will if they ever did anything. Some players will get in that we'll find out later were cheating. Mistakes are going to happen. The best we can do is to make the best informed decisions we can and keep out the guys that we KNOW cheated.

I call the accusation and prejudices against Bags and Biggio baseless because they're not specific to them. They're a product of the cloud created by other players and for which they bare no (known) responsibility. Essentially, they've been stereotyped.

[Tigers]

ha, I had forgotten about Caminiti... but, association still isn't guilt. And I wouldn't give anyone a pass unconditionally. But playing with a cheater doesn't make you a cheater any more than playing with a racist or a wife-beater make you a racist or wife-beater. We know the likes of Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Clemens, Palmeiro, Caminiti, ARod, Canseco, Ortiz, Ramirez, etc. cheated. Not because they played with someone who was dirty, or because there was a whispering campaign among some of the writers, we have far more firm proof that they cheated. Faceless rumors are nothing to smear a player's career over. If nothing has come up five years after a player's career is over, then the likelihood is low that anything ever will if they ever did anything. Some players will get in that we'll find out later were cheating. Mistakes are going to happen. The best we can do is to make the best informed decisions we can and keep out the guys that we KNOW cheated.

I call the accusation and prejudices against Bags and Biggio baseless because they're not specific to them. They're a product of the cloud created by other players and for which they bare no (known) responsibility. Essentially, they've been stereotyped.

I don't disagree that it is unfair to stereotype everyone from the steriod era, but I also think it is naive to think PED use was limited to the few names that have been drug through the media as the face of the issue. Selig, baseball in general and the BBWAA are just trying to cover their asses now after having turned a blind eye to the issue when it was helping win "fans" back to the game.

There is always going to be doubt when it comes to anyone that put up HOF type numbers over the past 30 years, IMO. I just don't think you can look at any record that was set over this period without some bit of skepticism creeping in.

Maybe I'm just cynical regarding the topic.

[Royals]

ha, I had forgotten about Caminiti... but, association still isn't guilt. And I wouldn't give anyone a pass unconditionally. But playing with a cheater doesn't make you a cheater any more than playing with a racist or a wife-beater make you a racist or wife-beater. We know the likes of Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Clemens, Palmeiro, Caminiti, ARod, Canseco, Ortiz, Ramirez, etc. cheated. Not because they played with someone who was dirty, or because there was a whispering campaign among some of the writers, we have far more firm proof that they cheated. Faceless rumors are nothing to smear a player's career over. If nothing has come up five years after a player's career is over, then the likelihood is low that anything ever will if they ever did anything. Some players will get in that we'll find out later were cheating. Mistakes are going to happen. The best we can do is to make the best informed decisions we can and keep out the guys that we KNOW cheated.

I call the accusation and prejudices against Bags and Biggio baseless because they're not specific to them. They're a product of the cloud created by other players and for which they bare no (known) responsibility. Essentially, they've been stereotyped.

I don't disagree that it is unfair to stereotype everyone from the steriod era, but I also think it is naive to think PED use was limited to the few names that have been drug through the media as the face of the issue. Selig, baseball in general and the BBWAA are just trying to cover their asses now after having turned a blind eye to the issue when it was helping win "fans" back to the game.

There is always going to be doubt when it comes to anyone that put up HOF type numbers over the past 30 years, IMO. I just don't think you can look at any record that was set over this period without some bit of skepticism creeping in.

Maybe I'm just cynical regarding the topic.

I'm with you on the cynicism to a point, but only to a point.
I do think Selig et al get too much of the blame for it though. They didn't do enough to stop it, no. But the MLBPA and the players weren't exactly clamoring for change, neither were the fans or media. Everyone shares some level of blame for creating that culture but no one is more responsible than the individual player who makes the decision to cheat or not to cheat. Real responsibility begins and ends there. It can always be said that more could be done to change the culture, but in fairness, the testers will ALWAYS be behind the cheaters. There's always something new. Ultimately the players choose to cheat or not.

[Tigers]

At the end of the day the players who took PED's is where the buck stops.

I just don't think there is a full appreciation for how widespread the issue was/is. The tar and feather routine for the small handfull that baseball has decided to "make a point" with is completely disingenious.