The Last Debate
Moderator: Yankees
So Bush was right about education? The real issue is a powerful teacher's union, which is a major backer of Democrat candidates. Thus, if that's the style of education you don't want, then the Pelosi/Reid congress is going to sorely disappoint you.Royals wrote:Bren's dead on here. Were there problems with NCLB? Abso-fucking-lutely, it was the worst funded program of our lifetimes. But, like Title IX, it is the right thought process - just a poorly worded and executed piece of legislation.
yeah, the last thing we want is teacher's deciding what to do with the educational system.Athletics wrote:So Bush was right about education? The real issue is a powerful teacher's union, which is a major backer of Democrat candidates. Thus, if that's the style of education you don't want, then the Pelosi/Reid congress is going to sorely disappoint you.Royals wrote:Bren's dead on here. Were there problems with NCLB? Abso-fucking-lutely, it was the worst funded program of our lifetimes. But, like Title IX, it is the right thought process - just a poorly worded and executed piece of legislation.
I know! Let's let the Bible and Sarah Palin's preacher decide!
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Yankees
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1) There's a 10% chance Bren becomes the Karl Rove of the Left...
2) Sarah Palin, the more I read, the more I hear, and given the fact that REPUBLICANS are saying it now I feel better saying it, is SCARY. I'm sorry, being the future of a US political party, she's just horrifying. There's straight talk, and then there's blatant disregard for anything that runs against her core beliefs, or outside her knowledge comfort zone. And I'm all for having one's core beliefs - but, as shown by the fruit fly comment, Palin has no problems attacking what she doesn't know. She's not inquisitive, she doesn't defer, she belittles or attacks. She's useless talking about foreign relations. She's useless on education. She's useless on the economy. She's useless on social reforms. She's excellent on drilling in Alaska and soundbites against Obama or defenseless fruit flys.
McCain wakes up every morning cursing his choice, knowing he should have picked Romney, regardless of where his name was in the nomination process. I gave Palin a chance - but she's the most inept VP candidate since that Stockdale guy Perot paraded out.
2) Sarah Palin, the more I read, the more I hear, and given the fact that REPUBLICANS are saying it now I feel better saying it, is SCARY. I'm sorry, being the future of a US political party, she's just horrifying. There's straight talk, and then there's blatant disregard for anything that runs against her core beliefs, or outside her knowledge comfort zone. And I'm all for having one's core beliefs - but, as shown by the fruit fly comment, Palin has no problems attacking what she doesn't know. She's not inquisitive, she doesn't defer, she belittles or attacks. She's useless talking about foreign relations. She's useless on education. She's useless on the economy. She's useless on social reforms. She's excellent on drilling in Alaska and soundbites against Obama or defenseless fruit flys.
McCain wakes up every morning cursing his choice, knowing he should have picked Romney, regardless of where his name was in the nomination process. I gave Palin a chance - but she's the most inept VP candidate since that Stockdale guy Perot paraded out.
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Yankees
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I wrote that before seeing this...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/2 ... 38765.html
I mean, I'm just fucking speechless...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/2 ... 38765.html
I mean, I'm just fucking speechless...
Major problem with Bren as Karl Rove:
Karl Rove is very very smart, never loses an argument, and makes points that follow logically even if you disagree with the premises of the argument. Debating Rove is like debating Scott Boras, you know with every fiber of your being that he's an evil bastard and he's wrong, but he still knows how to talk circles around you.
Bren might be an evil bastard and he might be wrong, but he doesn't talk circles around anyone
. Couple of other things. First of all, Sarah Palin was a bad gamble that clearly didn't pay off, and I would certainly never support her for president. It does however concern me that people completely ignore her record as governor, which does not match how she's been portrayed. Also, while we're talking about equivalents, Z, understand that if you're quoting Keith Olbermann or the Huffington Post it's the equivalent of quoting Rush Limbaugh (or maybe Michael Savage considering the anger and zealotry) or the Weekly Standard, we aren't exactly working from unbiased source material.
Karl Rove is very very smart, never loses an argument, and makes points that follow logically even if you disagree with the premises of the argument. Debating Rove is like debating Scott Boras, you know with every fiber of your being that he's an evil bastard and he's wrong, but he still knows how to talk circles around you.
Bren might be an evil bastard and he might be wrong, but he doesn't talk circles around anyone
. Couple of other things. First of all, Sarah Palin was a bad gamble that clearly didn't pay off, and I would certainly never support her for president. It does however concern me that people completely ignore her record as governor, which does not match how she's been portrayed. Also, while we're talking about equivalents, Z, understand that if you're quoting Keith Olbermann or the Huffington Post it's the equivalent of quoting Rush Limbaugh (or maybe Michael Savage considering the anger and zealotry) or the Weekly Standard, we aren't exactly working from unbiased source material.-
Yankees
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TOTALLY agree on Olbermann/Huffington Post and Limbaugh - unfortunately that doesn't change the fact that Palin described Alaska as an almost socialist state as soon as this past June - and is now fileting Obama on the same subject.
You can talk semantics (who said it), but you can't change facts on this one.
You can talk semantics (who said it), but you can't change facts on this one.
Palin wasn't simply a bad 'gamble', she was a bad decision and a sure sign of bad judgment. If you want to talk about her record and positions, let's do that.
She was in favor of the bridge-to-nowhere (a poster child for pork) until it became clear that it was making Alaska into a national joke. She described Alaska as a nearly socialist state (which is fairly close to correct, the state controls the natural resources within the state), and now inaccurately describes Obama as a socialist for being in favor of a graduated income tax. The graduated income tax has been in place for as long as we've had a constitutionally backed income tax, almost 100 years. It's not socialist, it's the American Way.
She improperly charged the state for travel arrangements for her children and later attempted to cover it up, insisting the children were there on 'state business'. Then there was her abuse of power in attempting to get her ex-brother-in-law fired. She also supports teaching creationism (a religious belief with no scientific foundation) alongside evolution in public schools, which is nothing short of cracked. There's also her view on the position of Vice-President which is either negligently ignorant, or dangerously power-hungry.
Sure, she's remarkably popular in Alaska, which isn't exactly difficult since there are no state income or sales taxes (in fact residents get a check every year) due to the Socialist state income from oil companies. She's running a state with a population roughly that of Austin Texas and a GDP statewide just over half that of the city of Pittsburgh's. Her 'executive experience' she keeps boasting about is a joke. She may as well be bragging about being the mayor of Lynn, MA
She was in favor of the bridge-to-nowhere (a poster child for pork) until it became clear that it was making Alaska into a national joke. She described Alaska as a nearly socialist state (which is fairly close to correct, the state controls the natural resources within the state), and now inaccurately describes Obama as a socialist for being in favor of a graduated income tax. The graduated income tax has been in place for as long as we've had a constitutionally backed income tax, almost 100 years. It's not socialist, it's the American Way.
She improperly charged the state for travel arrangements for her children and later attempted to cover it up, insisting the children were there on 'state business'. Then there was her abuse of power in attempting to get her ex-brother-in-law fired. She also supports teaching creationism (a religious belief with no scientific foundation) alongside evolution in public schools, which is nothing short of cracked. There's also her view on the position of Vice-President which is either negligently ignorant, or dangerously power-hungry.
Sure, she's remarkably popular in Alaska, which isn't exactly difficult since there are no state income or sales taxes (in fact residents get a check every year) due to the Socialist state income from oil companies. She's running a state with a population roughly that of Austin Texas and a GDP statewide just over half that of the city of Pittsburgh's. Her 'executive experience' she keeps boasting about is a joke. She may as well be bragging about being the mayor of Lynn, MA
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Guardians
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I live in Williamsport, PA. Biden and Palin decided to make stops here yesterday. About 400 people showed up to see Biden speak.....a few hours later about 10,000 showed up to see Palin. I guess she must be popular in at least one area outside Alaska.RedSox wrote:Sure, she's remarkably popular in Alaska,
http://www.wnep.com/Global/story.asp?S=9266368
Biden isn't a crowd draw, he's a smart pick (if boring), while Palin is more Eye Candy, all form, no clue. Aaron would be less in over his head than Palin is. Hell I'd go see her myself, it's like catching a freak show at a carnival. That's not to say there were a lot of people there for that, but there are a lot of people who are taken in by the type of shallowness that Palin, and Bush, represent. 10k people at a Palin rally, that's 10k really shallow, foolish people. Hell, I'd actually rather have another term of Bush than take the chance of Palin being president.
Yes, people that go to a Palin rally are all shallow, foolish people. Now, what if I were to say that everyone that goes to an Obama rally were nothing but sheep that can do nothing but repeat Obama campaign soundbites off his website and say nothing of substance? People that see a man pay for 30 minutes of airtime and call it a life changing experience. Get off your high horse
Being at a historic event and seeing history unfold is an experience you remember, no matter who is speaking. You can try to twist that into some insult or slur against Obama, but it doesn't really work.
And its funny, no matter how much substance people say, it always comes back to them saying "nothing." Either you're lying or you're not listening. Just as many Obama supporters can argue issues as McCain supporters. And if you think there aren't millions of republican voters who at best can repeat "soundbites" than you're mistaken big time.
The Democrats don't have a monopoly on uninformed voters. You can keep telling yourself that the reason Obama is here is that he tricked us all with his "pretty words" but it's a sad, sad excuse.
And its funny, no matter how much substance people say, it always comes back to them saying "nothing." Either you're lying or you're not listening. Just as many Obama supporters can argue issues as McCain supporters. And if you think there aren't millions of republican voters who at best can repeat "soundbites" than you're mistaken big time.
The Democrats don't have a monopoly on uninformed voters. You can keep telling yourself that the reason Obama is here is that he tricked us all with his "pretty words" but it's a sad, sad excuse.
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Yankees
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What an ignorant fucking statement. I'm literally appalled - and I like to think I've at least known the angle you are coming from in the past, Aaron.
Obama was on food stamps as a child. He was raised by one parent and grandparents. He lived away from his mother for a time. He saw his father once after his birth. He fought for rights, opportunity, and equality in the toughest part of Chicago. Just because someone 'makes it' doesn't mean they aren't 'one of you.'
Just because my dad went from poverty to having a great job in education doesn't mean he's not 'one of the people.' If you use your education and position to fight for the people, you are one of the people. There's nothing in Obama's career that suggests he hasn't used his lot in life to improve the lives of people around him.
If you only wrote that to get a rise out of people, nicely done. If you wrote that because you believe that, shame on you.
Obama was on food stamps as a child. He was raised by one parent and grandparents. He lived away from his mother for a time. He saw his father once after his birth. He fought for rights, opportunity, and equality in the toughest part of Chicago. Just because someone 'makes it' doesn't mean they aren't 'one of you.'
Just because my dad went from poverty to having a great job in education doesn't mean he's not 'one of the people.' If you use your education and position to fight for the people, you are one of the people. There's nothing in Obama's career that suggests he hasn't used his lot in life to improve the lives of people around him.
If you only wrote that to get a rise out of people, nicely done. If you wrote that because you believe that, shame on you.
I'd also love to know when having an ivy league education became a bad thing. This country hates its smart people more than any other I can think of. Palin mentions his Harvard background with such disgust, and follows it up with a "i'm one of you joe-sixpacks" remark. When did it become appealing to people to have Joe Six-pack solve the world's most complex and important problems. I got no problem with Joe Six pack. Half of my family fits that mold. My whole growing up was Middle America. But I for the life of me would never want someone "just like me" running the country. I want someone smarter than me. A Harvard education is a nice start.
Okay where did I ever say going to Harvard was a bad thing? When did I ever say that Obama's accomplishments were a bad thing? I said when you have an Ivy League degree, you can no longer claim to be one of "us." Now, with the money, power and influence that Obama currently has, how in the hell can you claim that he is just like me, or just like JP, or just like Gabe? We're talking about a man running for President. He is not one of the people.
A lot of problems can be solved by Joe Six Packs, its called common sense, something not many politicians use anymore. Don't spend more than you make. I abide by that, why can't the government?
The fact you were appalled by my statement, when I said not one inflamatory thing, boggles my mind. Some of you guys need to get Obama's dick out of your mouth so you can think clearly, and not take any negative comment about the guy to be a personal insult to you.
A lot of problems can be solved by Joe Six Packs, its called common sense, something not many politicians use anymore. Don't spend more than you make. I abide by that, why can't the government?
The fact you were appalled by my statement, when I said not one inflamatory thing, boggles my mind. Some of you guys need to get Obama's dick out of your mouth so you can think clearly, and not take any negative comment about the guy to be a personal insult to you.
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Cardinals
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To be appalled by a statement like that is disturbing. Entirely disturbing. Yet I'm not surprised in the least bit. You're acting as if Aaron made some sort of racist remark calling Obama a dumb negro who thinks he's smarter than everybody because he went to Harvard. Did he say that? No. Is it ignorant to say that a Harvard grad is intellectually above most Americans? No. Is it true? Possibly. Is he stating the obvious? yes. Nobody is saying it's a BAD THING to have a good education. At all. Aaron merely said you can't have it both ways - be an Ivy leaguer and pretend to be Joe the Plumber. You're a presidential candidate who graduated from Harvard, you're NOT one of the people.
As for Joe Biden being a smart pick, are we talking about the same Joe Biden who claimed that if his ticket won we would face a "major international challenge" because they'll want to "test Barack Obama"? So the Vice President Nominee of the party you support is telling us Americans that we can embrace for some sort of international crisis, likely some sort of terrorist attack, if we vote for him? Wow, how comforting. What a great pick. Maybe if the media weren't beyond leftist slanted right now, we could hear more about this.
I just hope that all you Obama supporters are ready for what comes next. The fact that he's got everybody fooled is a credit to how well he can speak. The guy is a great public speaker. America unfortunately has drank his kool aid. He's got the media and money on his side and has now fooled the country into believing that he's the moderate and unifying figure in this election when that couldn't even be further from the truth. John McCain is far more moderate than Obama is, yet McCain is painted out to be Bush III and Obama is exalted as the savior of this country. He's painted to be somebody who will fight for the little guy. Yeah, he'll fight for the little guy alright. He'll take somebody's hard earned money, tax it further, and give it to people who don't even pay income taxes. How noble. We're electing nothing more than a glorified Robin Hood if Obama is elected. The media acts as if we've never seen somebody like Obama before, and you know, to an extent, they're right. We've never had somebody drinking a candidates koolaid like this, ever. We've never had the American public be so jaded between perception and reality on a candidate before and it is sickening. The fact that he's seen as a moderate is a complete joke. Even the most liberal Supreme Court justices wouldn't agree with his notions.
How about this gem:
I'm not exactly sure how a Democrat gets painted as the candidate to slash taxes without the media's help. But sadly, the majority of Americans seem to think that they will not have their taxes raised on them within these next four (and God forbid) 8 years of possible Obama as president. Please. How else is he going to fund his money for his social spending and spread the wealth around? By raising taxes on everybody of course, and his cronies in crime Pelosi and Reid are just licking their lips at the opportunity to do this too I'm sure. That way we can increase taxes for everybody eventually much like Clinton did, and instead of promoting growth and wealth, we can promote and demote everybody to the same class- even if these people aren't paying income taxes.
Also, since Obama is painted as this great, great, great man, why does he have a half brother living in a shanty town in Africa who's embarrassed of himself? Can't this great man help his family out? Why doesn't he spread his own wealth around to his own blood? I'll tell you why, because he's a complete fraud.
Say what you will, call me racist if you want, but I'll say what should be said. It should raise many eyebrows to everybody about electing a man whose closest friends in his years coming up through the political system were domestic terrorists, Marxists and radical preachers (Hello Mr. Wright) and has a half brother who is a militant Muslim. These things are totally normal for the President of the United States of America. If you don't believe me here then:
So you know what, you guys can be all scared of Sarah Palin wanting creationism to be taught alongside evolution. You can fear people having Judeo-Christian morals written and weaved into the fabric of our society. You can fear keeping the integrity of the Constitution intact. You can fear not appeasing the select few atheists and socialists in the country. You can fear wealth and prosperity. I will go ahead and fear for the American public and how Obama's excellent way with words has duped everybody into believing that he's something that he's not. I'll fear what Joe Biden himself said- That we will face an international crisis within the next 9 months if he is elected. I'll fear for our economy since Obama has no idea what he's doing. (His response to the big economic crisis with the bailout last month? "Tell me what to do and I will sell it.") Much like his entire campaign has been a sales pitch. I'll fear Pelosi, Reid's and Obama's agenda.
As for Joe Biden being a smart pick, are we talking about the same Joe Biden who claimed that if his ticket won we would face a "major international challenge" because they'll want to "test Barack Obama"? So the Vice President Nominee of the party you support is telling us Americans that we can embrace for some sort of international crisis, likely some sort of terrorist attack, if we vote for him? Wow, how comforting. What a great pick. Maybe if the media weren't beyond leftist slanted right now, we could hear more about this.
I just hope that all you Obama supporters are ready for what comes next. The fact that he's got everybody fooled is a credit to how well he can speak. The guy is a great public speaker. America unfortunately has drank his kool aid. He's got the media and money on his side and has now fooled the country into believing that he's the moderate and unifying figure in this election when that couldn't even be further from the truth. John McCain is far more moderate than Obama is, yet McCain is painted out to be Bush III and Obama is exalted as the savior of this country. He's painted to be somebody who will fight for the little guy. Yeah, he'll fight for the little guy alright. He'll take somebody's hard earned money, tax it further, and give it to people who don't even pay income taxes. How noble. We're electing nothing more than a glorified Robin Hood if Obama is elected. The media acts as if we've never seen somebody like Obama before, and you know, to an extent, they're right. We've never had somebody drinking a candidates koolaid like this, ever. We've never had the American public be so jaded between perception and reality on a candidate before and it is sickening. The fact that he's seen as a moderate is a complete joke. Even the most liberal Supreme Court justices wouldn't agree with his notions.
How about this gem:
He has ideas for the courts to work away from the constitution and do things that even the liberal supreme court justices of past and present wouldn't agree with."The Constitution reflects deep flaws in American culture ... the Constitution reflected enormous blind spot of those days which continues to this day...""There are fundamental problems (in the Constitution which) ... we're still grappling with today ..."
I'm not exactly sure how a Democrat gets painted as the candidate to slash taxes without the media's help. But sadly, the majority of Americans seem to think that they will not have their taxes raised on them within these next four (and God forbid) 8 years of possible Obama as president. Please. How else is he going to fund his money for his social spending and spread the wealth around? By raising taxes on everybody of course, and his cronies in crime Pelosi and Reid are just licking their lips at the opportunity to do this too I'm sure. That way we can increase taxes for everybody eventually much like Clinton did, and instead of promoting growth and wealth, we can promote and demote everybody to the same class- even if these people aren't paying income taxes.
Also, since Obama is painted as this great, great, great man, why does he have a half brother living in a shanty town in Africa who's embarrassed of himself? Can't this great man help his family out? Why doesn't he spread his own wealth around to his own blood? I'll tell you why, because he's a complete fraud.
Say what you will, call me racist if you want, but I'll say what should be said. It should raise many eyebrows to everybody about electing a man whose closest friends in his years coming up through the political system were domestic terrorists, Marxists and radical preachers (Hello Mr. Wright) and has a half brother who is a militant Muslim. These things are totally normal for the President of the United States of America. If you don't believe me here then:
This is a prime example of reverse racism as well I might point out. If John McCain went to a Protestant Church and had a preacher say far-right Conservative sermons, man, I'm sure Bren would be in quite the rage spewing how we're about to go into a theocracy and how Zalaski would quote Keith Olbermann for us about how batshit the Right Wing has become in this country. But, since it's Barack Obama, whose half Kenyan, if we dare question his religious surroundings and be frightful for what he supports his preacher saying, we will immediately be labeled an intolerant racist, or maybe even worse- a redneck hick. I think if Palin's priest said extreme right wing stuff Bren himself might just implode and NBC, CBS and CNN would have a field day.Obama's older brother still lives there. Abongo "Roy" Obama is a Luo activist and a militant Muslim who argues that the black man must "liberate himself from the poisoning influences of European culture." He urges his younger brother to embrace his African heritage.
So you know what, you guys can be all scared of Sarah Palin wanting creationism to be taught alongside evolution. You can fear people having Judeo-Christian morals written and weaved into the fabric of our society. You can fear keeping the integrity of the Constitution intact. You can fear not appeasing the select few atheists and socialists in the country. You can fear wealth and prosperity. I will go ahead and fear for the American public and how Obama's excellent way with words has duped everybody into believing that he's something that he's not. I'll fear what Joe Biden himself said- That we will face an international crisis within the next 9 months if he is elected. I'll fear for our economy since Obama has no idea what he's doing. (His response to the big economic crisis with the bailout last month? "Tell me what to do and I will sell it.") Much like his entire campaign has been a sales pitch. I'll fear Pelosi, Reid's and Obama's agenda.
12, 14, 15, 17, 22
