NBA Discussion

Royals · Post by **Royals** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:16 pm

Brewers wrote:Maybe it is out of reach but he certainly isn't unselfish this year.

You're absolutely right, Kobe isn't unselfish this year at all...

DBacks · Post by **DBacks** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:16 pm

Marlins wrote: Jordan wouldn't have won titles without Pippen.

I disagree, but there's no way to ever know.

Yankees · Post by **Yankees** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:16 pm

Aaron, in case you didn't know:

Pro Basketball Players = The Best College College Basketball Players + $12 mill per year

When you give a 22 year old $12 million a year, it's not rocket science to guess that they don't all invest it.

If you watched Golden St. and Phoenix from just before the All-Star break and can tell me that you would rather watch a college game, I'd call you a non-sports fan. The sport got cold because the players didn't stack up to the 90's - that's the main reason. Now, the league is back and then some.

Teams I'd pay to see play:
Boston - The Big 3!
Toronto - For Bosh, Calderon and their Euro style!
Detroit - Team Basketball!
Cleveland - LeBron!
Chicago - United Center rocks!
Orlando - Fun, fun young team!
Washington - Butler and Jamison, and soon to be Agent 0!
Atlanta - awesome young team!
Utah - Deron!
Denver - AI and Melo!
Portland - awesome young team!
Seattle - Durant!
Lakers - Kobe!
Phoenix - Nash!
Golden St. - sick sick offense!
Hornets - Chris Paul!
San Antonio - Duncan and Parker!
Dallas - Dirk and Kidd!
Houston - T-Mac and Yao!

Orioles · Post by **Orioles** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:19 pm

Giants wrote:Yeah, the Lakers look great standing around watching Kobe score 81...

You do realize that the 81 point game was over 2 years ago, right?

DBacks · Post by **DBacks** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:25 pm

Royals wrote:When you give a 22 year old $12 million a year, it's not rocket science to guess that they don't all invest it.

So we're just supposed to "understand" that going out to strip clubs and getting arrested and starting fights is what "rich college kids" do, and not think anything of it?

He's got a point. For awhile it really seemed as if the NBA was nothing but a bunch of punks with too much money and too much time on their hands.

They certainly couldnt have been putting that much effort into their game if they were spending all their time going out and wavng their guns around.

I mean the players were beating the crap out of fans. How much more ridiculous can it get?

And, as much as the NBA is growing on me, it doesn't come close to college ball.

Marlins · Post by **Marlins** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:27 pm

[quote="Royals"]Aaron, in case you didn't know:

Pro Basketball Players = The Best College College Basketball Players + $12 mill per year

When you give a 22 year old $12 million a year, it's not rocket science to guess that they don't all invest it.

If you watched Golden St. and Phoenix from just before the All-Star break and can tell me that you would rather watch a college game, I'd call you a non-sports fan. The sport got cold because the players didn't stack up to the 90's - that's the main reason. Now, the league is back and then some.

Teams I'd pay to see play:
Boston - The Big 3!
Toronto - For Bosh, Calderon and their Euro style!
Detroit - Team Basketball!
Cleveland - LeBron!
Chicago - United Center rocks!
Orlando - Fun, fun young team!
Washington - Butler and Jamison, and soon to be Agent 0!
Atlanta - awesome young team!
Utah - Deron!
Denver - AI and Melo!
Portland - awesome young team!
Seattle - Durant!
Lakers - Kobe!
Phoenix - Nash!
Golden St. - sick sick offense!
Hornets - Chris Paul!
San Antonio - Duncan and Parker!
Dallas - Dirk and Kidd!
Houston - T-Mac and Yao![/quote]

You forgot the Knicks!

Knicks - Isiah! Randolph! Curry! Spike Lee!

Orioles · Post by **Orioles** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:33 pm

I like the college game better because A) the fans are better night in and night out and B) there's nothing in sports like March Madness

However, the NBA is great b/c of how ridiculously good the players are. They don't miss open shots. The NBA playoffs are pretty exciting b/c of the intensity of the crowds (and the players), so the western conference playoffs this year should be as good as it gets.

Yankees · Post by **Yankees** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:40 pm

So we're just supposed to "understand" that going out to strip clubs and getting arrested and starting fights is what "rich college kids" do, and not think anything of it?

He's got a point. For awhile it really seemed as if the NBA was nothing but a bunch of punks with too much money and too much time on their hands.

They certainly couldnt have been putting that much effort into their game if they were spending all their time going out and wavng their guns around.

I mean the players were beating the crap out of fans. How much more ridiculous can it get?

And, as much as the NBA is growing on me, it doesn't come close to college ball.

You were just in college - don't you have friends who got into fights? Don't you have friends that got tossed out of a strip club? Maybe we were too poor for guns, and way too not famous to have the police keep their eyes on us - but if either of the above never happened to you, you were trying in college. Jesus, the Bengals had more arrests in one year then the ENTIRE NBA, and no one said anything about it.

If you're going to get on a 22 year old for doing dumb shit, maybe it's time to take a look in the mirror. My friends and I, and almost everyone I'd hope, has done all sorts of dumb shit. When we do it it's at Peepers and the local dive bar - when these guys do it it's at Scores and trendy clubs.

The NBA got that rap because, post-Jordan, they didn't have the star power like the NFL and MLB had - and thus were getting crushed by the negative pub, while the NFL and MLB could rely on the quality of their product. If people were looking any harder, they would have seen rampant drug problems that existed in both of those sports that has not factored into the NBA, and their own lion's share of bad people as well.

I mean the players were beating the crap out of fans.

Love this excuse - an isolated incident that was the biggest black eye in the history of the sport. Because that happens once every 2,000 years. Plus the guy bum-rushing the court deserved to be punched by O'Neal.

It's like saying all baseball players are racists because Ty Cobb was throwing around the n-word like he had no control over it.

DBacks · Post by **DBacks** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:58 pm

But that's the point. The NBA didn't have the star power to cover up all the dumb shit they're players were doing. So, the consequences were that all people heard about the NBA were the negative reports about their players getting arrested and going to jail. Its not hard to believe that there were tons of people like Aaron and I who wrote off the NBA as lost to the thug lifestyle.

And, its not out jobs as fans to "accept" or "understand" their terrible behavior. Its the NBA's job to fix the problem and alter public perception of the league and its players.

Royals wrote:
I mean the players were beating the crap out of fans.
Love this excuse

What is it an excuse for? It's not an excuse, its an incident that did happen and shouldn't be ignored. Was it a one-time thing, sure. But it did happen, and it happened during a time when the NBA wasn't throwing out anything positive.

All I'm saying is there was a period of time, that seems to be coming to a close, where the NBA was very unlikeable. I don't think that statement is at all out of line or inaccurate.

I mean saying that we should ignore the Detroit game, be more sympathetic to the legal problems of millionaires, and be supportive of a league that had very little star power is an awful lot to ask of a fan base. It's unreasonable to ask of a fan base, and thats why sports fans like Aaron, myself, and many others were completely justified in leaving the NBA alone.

And that wasn't our fault. It was the NBA's. It wasn't us being narrow-minded. It was the NBA being a mess.

Yankees · Post by **Yankees** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:10 pm

I'm sorry, the NBA was a mess? You OF COURSE meant EXCEPT for:
1) The NBA's European and Asian expansion was taking full swing
2) The league had the highest-grossing merchandising #'s the game had ever seen
3) The revitilization of the business of basketball that saw unprecedented growth of teams being in the black, and player contracts going through the roof
4) The growth of player sponsorship contracts, and the popularity of basketball players as product endorsers
5) The rise of one of the classiest generation of players of our lifetime, a group with unprecedented community service efforts (just for quick examples: Kobe, Chauncey, and Duncan)

When we are talking about the whole NBA turning into thugs, who are you, specifically, talking about? Who were "all those guys getting arrested or shooting people"? Stephen Jackson, Ron Artest...two guys who are still around and have almost totally revitilized both their images.

The "when the NBA wasn't throwing out anything positive" response is totally fine if you consider yourself an ignorant fan of sports.

DBacks · Post by **DBacks** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:17 pm

Royals wrote:I'm sorry, the NBA was a mess? You OF COURSE meant EXCEPT for:
1) The NBA's European and Asian expansion was taking full swing
2) The league had the highest-grossing merchandising #'s the game had ever seen
3) The revitilization of the business of basketball that saw unprecedented growth of teams being in the black, and player contracts going through the roof
4) The growth of player sponsorship contracts, and the popularity of basketball players as product endorsers
5) The rise of one of the classiest generation of players of our lifetime, a group with unprecedented community service efforts (just for quick examples: Kobe, Chauncey, and Duncan)

When we are talking about the whole NBA turning into thugs, who are you, specifically, talking about? Who were "all those guys getting arrested or shooting people"? Stephen Jackson, Ron Artest...two guys who are still around and have almost totally revitilized both their images.

The "when the NBA wasn't throwing out anything positive" response is totally fine if you consider yourself an ignorant fan of sports.

Yep. That's what we're talking about when we're sitting at the Ale House watching a game. That's what fans care about.

"Dude, did you know that the NBA is experiencing a revitilization of the business of basketball. There is an unprecedented growth of teams being in the black."

"Awesome. That certainly makes up for them beating the shit out of those fans. Let's have another beer."

DBacks · Post by **DBacks** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:20 pm

And those rape charges and admitted affair of Kobe's made him seem real classy.

Astros · Post by **Astros** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:26 pm

Well I don't consider rapists to be classy players. You're telling me I'm supposed to feel sorry for a millionaire that gets arrested and can pay his $20,000 bond with cash he has on hand. And that it doesn't affect the player one bit. Just because he's young? I'm young and yeah me and my friends have done stupid shit, but we also never hurt anyone and there's a big difference between throwin each other in a lake, shoving someone into a pile of horse shit or driving around at night running over possums(yeah yeah I know I'm a hillbilly) and firing a gun into the air.

I'm not going to feel sorry for some punk because he thinks he can do whatever the hell he wants because he suddenly has a lot of money and might've grown up poor. Well guess what, I grew up poor and so did Gabe and when we get together, we don't go around breaking the law. I don't go around shooting my guns in the air. Don't make excuses for them because nobody would be making any for us

Yankees · Post by **Yankees** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:41 pm

To answer why you should care:
1) The NBA's European and Asian expansion was taking full swing - Because it has now led to the European style of basketball that has increased the popularity of the game and introduced the Dirk's, Yao's etc. to the game - you probably should have noticed that...
2) The league had the highest-grossing merchandising #'s the game had ever seen - Because the league was still everywhere, offering the most accessible players in all of sports
3) The revitilization of the business of basketball that saw unprecedented growth of teams being in the black, and player contracts going through the roof - This allowed the league to continue to keep upper bowl ticket prices down, thus allowing you to be able to actually go to games...
4) The growth of player sponsorship contracts, and the popularity of basketball players as product endorsers - Allowing the growth of popularity as you currently see it
5) The rise of one of the classiest generation of players of our lifetime, a group with unprecedented community service efforts (just for quick examples: Kobe, Chauncey, and Duncan) - Players cheat on their wives in every sport - this isn't actually fascinating new news. Kobe clearly got the rape charge because he tried to stick it in the wrong color eye, and she wasn't a big fan of that.

How many of those players have matured into the guys you see now? Carmelo, LeBron, Bosh, and Wade all got their starts during this era. AI has been a positive influence in both the Philly and Denver communities. Kobe is beloved again. I mean, I guess it just depends on how you want to look at the sport.

If you're going to sit around the Ale House and just comment on how players look on the court, and have that be the entire basis of your opinion, then you're just not a sports fan. I bet being the 30,000 feet view sports fans you think Carmelo is a thug.

About 10 seconds worth of research will tell you that he's rebuilt youth basketball in Baltimore, and Syracuse, and has been an incredibly positive and giving influence in the Denver community.

I keep asking you guys who else you guys got besides Stephen Jackson and Ron Artest - still waiting...

Royals · Post by **Royals** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:50 pm

I'm with Z here and maybe I wouldn't be if I wasn't living in Cinci and seeing the absolutely ridiculous shit the Bengals players were doing on an almost weekly basis. Then you've got the Vikings' booze cruise... Ray Lewis getting away with murder... Ron Mexico, I mean Michael Vick, and his disastrous behaviour... NFL players are no better. You could argue that they're worse.

But Z, you're not gonna have any luck arguing Kobe is classy. Even aside from the rape thing he's been seen as a selfish, petulant player for far too long.
On the other hand one of the biggest stars at one point was Allen "Practice?!" Iverson, a guy who practically defined the image of being a 'punk'. Then you've got Jason "I beat my wife in front of my" Kidd. Not to mention Vince Carter blatantly tanking in Toronto. This is off the top of my head from a guy who wasn't even following the league much.

I'd argue the Referee Gambling issue was a bigger black eye than Artest punching a guy.

DBacks · Post by **DBacks** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:01 pm

Royals wrote: AI has been a positive influence in both the Philly and Denver communities.

Yeah, and he was real positive for the league when he was accused of beating his wife and unlawful possession of a gun. Good thing that didn't get a lot of coverage. Neither did that whole "practice" thing, right? Because NBA stars really cared about the game.

And Jason Kidd beating up his wife was no big deal either, right? It's not like he's one of their "stars." And Arenas was charged with having a gun he wasn't supposed to as well. He's not popular, is he?

Jermaine O'Neal didn't beat anybody up and neither did Stackhouse. There weren't a lot of DUIs or anything. I don't remember any of that happening.

This will be my last post on this. Apparently when I debate people I'm uncivilized, so I'm going to just let it go, and politely agree to disagree.

As a sports fan, even one that you may consider "ignorant" Z, I and many others believe the NBA was completely unlikeable for a very long time. I'm not going to try to convince someone who works for basketball that the sport was unlikeable, because it seems kind of useless. So you think what you want and I'll think what I want, and I'll just go on being happy that the NBA seems to be recovering.

Mets · Post by **Mets** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:05 pm

I still prefer low scoring games, but that's true for all sports...watching a 2-1 baseball game is more satisfying than a 8-6 one for me.

I take 240 k's over 60 hr's from a superstar. And that carries over to my dislike of the new era of the NBA.

That, and the arguement that hockey is an elitest sport....I think the same goes for basketball. If you're not privledged to be born with good genetics, then your chances of enjoying baseketball dimish greatly. I grew up playing at playgrounds in NY, and unless I was playing at the catholic school, I was getting my ass kicked by people who were taller & athletic, which had a lot to do with turning me off to the sport....there's opportunity in the other 3 sports for people of all builds to be successful.

Yankees · Post by **Yankees** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:08 pm

No, no, no, no, no - I'm not arguing the NBA was "likable." That was certainly the low point of "likability" in my lifetime - I even admitted such in those posts.

You said nothing good came out of that era - I stand firmly that there were undercurrents of that era that are leading to the resurgence right now.

The only other thing I argued was that the NBA got a bum rap compared to other sports. There are criminals in every sport, and pretty evenly spread out. If you look the NBA DOUBLES the MLB efforts for community service, and TRIPLES the NFL.

I'm now just going to call you ignorant for changing your argument.

Royals · Post by **Royals** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:12 pm

Royals wrote:If you look the NBA DOUBLES the MLB efforts for community service, and TRIPLES the NFL.

How much of that is court mandated though?
Sorry, it had to be said... I agree with you more than I disagree with you on this Z, but as an NBA employee, I think you might be just a little bit biased (and understandably so).

Astros · Post by **Astros** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:19 pm

Exactly. Doing community service because its court ordered hardly counts in my opinion. Holy shit I just agreed with Bren. And I agree with John, more than anything, basketball is a sport determined by athleticism and nothing else. I grew up loving basketball almost as much as baseball, after all, I do live in Indiana. In elementary school I was playing in games for my school while having a fever, diving into the stands for loose balls and setting 2 dozen picks a game (think of me as the 5th grade Lance Stemler). Did any of that matter to coaches as I got older? No, because I stopped growing, was slow and couldn't jump.

You can be the most fundamentally sound, smart player on the court and be a great shooter but if you're not athletic it doesn't matter. That's why Travis Diener was a 2nd round pick and has bounced around that league. That's why Patrick Sparks, Mike Gansey and Kevin Pittsnogle weren't drafted. The NBA doesn't care how good you can be, they only care about how high you can jump and what your wingspan is. That's part of the reason I quit watching, I was seeing guys that accomplished very little in college getting drafted in the first round while guys that were terrific players go undrafted

Royals · Post by **Royals** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:33 pm

Ok. I had what i think was actually a fairly thoughtful thought whilst out on my run this evening. Most of when we see athletes, they're in uniform, right?

Here's a football player in uniform

Here's a baseball player in uniform

Here's a basketball player in uniform

All three of these guys (Rodney Harrison, Elijah Dukes and Allen Iverson) are black and have earned (justly) fairly negative reputations. Which one looks like a thug/punk/asshole?
Perception is everything. The ink-heavy nature of the NBA contributes to a negative image and their far more revealing uniforms leave it right in the audience's face.
I'm not saying "This is THE reason why NBA players have a more negative (or less positive) image than NFL or MLB players," but I think it could certainly be a factor.

Just my $.02[/img]

Cardinals · Post by **Cardinals** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:40 pm

RedSox wrote:Ok. I had what i think was actually a fairly thoughtful thought whilst out on my run this evening. Most of when we see athletes, they're in uniform, right?

Here's a football player in uniform

I have that picture of Harrison signed from when I met him. Pretty dope.

Yankees · Post by **Yankees** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:44 pm

You can be the most fundamentally sound, smart player on the court and be a great shooter but if you're not athletic it doesn't matter. That's why Travis Diener was a 2nd round pick and has bounced around that league. That's why Patrick Sparks, Mike Gansey and Kevin Pittsnogle weren't drafted. The NBA doesn't care how good you can be, they only care about how high you can jump and what your wingspan is. That's part of the reason I quit watching, I was seeing guys that accomplished very little in college getting drafted in the first round while guys that were terrific players go undrafted

I mean, what? Pittsnogle and Gansey both got excellent chances with a crappy Celtics team, and both of them got absolutely slaughtered in the Vegas Summer League. Sparks was a decent college player - nowhere near the "very good."

Sure Diener bounced around, but he's proving himself little by little and has started to play decent minutes for the Pacers this year. Chauncey Billups also bounced around for a few years and he turned out ok.

Also, you joke about "court mandated community service," but that effects 5% of the league at the absolute max - probably more like 2-3% (and remember, the NBA is better off then the NFL when it comes to arrests). NBA Cares is one of the greatest community service vehicles in sports, and because basketball players are so recognizable on their respective field of play, they are also the most sought after athletes as a whole for Make-A-Wish, etc. - and they almost always oblige.

Aaron and Gabe, stop running around the argument - all I'm saying is that there was an image problem, and it's going away because of the good that came out of that time period. I'm not trying to argue there are zero criminals in the NBA. That'd be an impossible argument to win...

Royals · Post by **Royals** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:53 pm

Royals wrote:That'd be an impossible argument to win...

hmmmmm.... I may have just found myself a new cause...

Giants · Post by **Giants** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:32 am

How many of you New England guys got to see that incredible Warriors-Celtics game last night? If the NBA wants to solve its image problem what it needs to do is cancel their national slate of games and replace it with Warriors games, they always bring it, and their style brings out the best in their opponents. You can't leave a Warriors game without seeing something entertaining, and no matter what the score is the game is never over (the Warriors have both come back from more than 20 and blown 20 point leads this season). Plus Steven Jackson on national TV every night and Sir Charles ripping the Warriors 24-7 while they continue to win would be beyond awesome.