IBC

I found this interesting that Weaver was included, but not Greinke.

bumphadley (NJ): Legit No. 1's (on less than two hands): Felix, Sabathia, Lester, Lincecum, Halladay, Lee, Verlander, Kershaw, Greinke, Weaver Who am I missing? Anyone who shouldn't be there?

Kevin Goldstein: Greinke is not a legit No. 1.

Also gotta give a shout out to this guy Nils who asked a question. He seems to know his shit.

Nils (Stamford): Enny Romero has had two good starts to begin the year. Is he the type of guy who could shoot up the prospect rankings this year?

Kevin Goldstein: Absolutely he could. Long lefty with plus power stuff and rare control for his age. Will move up, and also a shot at exploding (in a good way).

Tigers wrote:I found this interesting that Weaver was included, but not Greinke.

bumphadley (NJ): Legit No. 1's (on less than two hands): Felix, Sabathia, Lester, Lincecum, Halladay, Lee, Verlander, Kershaw, Greinke, Weaver Who am I missing? Anyone who shouldn't be there?

Kevin Goldstein: Greinke is not a legit No. 1.

Maybe he is worried Greinke will go cower in a hole if he ever has a bad stretch of games...or he loves the K rate and ever decreasing WHIP with Weaver, because I know I do.

Giants wrote:Also gotta give a shout out to this guy Nils who asked a question. He seems to know his shit.

Nils (Stamford): Enny Romero has had two good starts to begin the year. Is he the type of guy who could shoot up the prospect rankings this year?

Kevin Goldstein: Absolutely he could. Long lefty with plus power stuff and rare control for his age. Will move up, and also a shot at exploding (in a good way).

Go Enny!

what about josh johnson?

Tigers wrote:I found this interesting that Weaver was included, but not Greinke.

bumphadley (NJ): Legit No. 1's (on less than two hands): Felix, Sabathia, Lester, Lincecum, Halladay, Lee, Verlander, Kershaw, Greinke, Weaver Who am I missing? Anyone who shouldn't be there?

Kevin Goldstein: Greinke is not a legit No. 1.

That is dumb, at least based on the past few years. All of Greinke's numbers were in the midst of these other guys last year, and he was the best pitcher in baseball in 2009. His stuff fell back some last year, and I suppose it's possible that he knows it's falling back more moving forward, but I think it's more likely he's talking out his ass.

Rockies wrote:what about josh johnson?

S (NJ): Josh Johnson - legit No. 1?

Kevin Goldstein: Absolutely.

Rangers wrote:

Tigers wrote:I found this interesting that Weaver was included, but not Greinke.

bumphadley (NJ): Legit No. 1's (on less than two hands): Felix, Sabathia, Lester, Lincecum, Halladay, Lee, Verlander, Kershaw, Greinke, Weaver Who am I missing? Anyone who shouldn't be there?

Kevin Goldstein: Greinke is not a legit No. 1.

That is dumb, at least based on the past few years. All of Greinke's numbers were in the midst of these other guys last year, and he was the best pitcher in baseball in 2009. His stuff fell back some last year, and I suppose it's possible that he knows it's falling back more moving forward, but I think it's more likely he's talking out his ass.

Gotta agree with Brett on this. Greinke is right there with any of those guys.

Padres wrote:

Rangers wrote:

Tigers wrote:I found this interesting that Weaver was included, but not Greinke.

bumphadley (NJ): Legit No. 1's (on less than two hands): Felix, Sabathia, Lester, Lincecum, Halladay, Lee, Verlander, Kershaw, Greinke, Weaver Who am I missing? Anyone who shouldn't be there?

Kevin Goldstein: Greinke is not a legit No. 1.

That is dumb, at least based on the past few years. All of Greinke's numbers were in the midst of these other guys last year, and he was the best pitcher in baseball in 2009. His stuff fell back some last year, and I suppose it's possible that he knows it's falling back more moving forward, but I think it's more likely he's talking out his ass.

Gotta agree with Brett on this. Greinke is right there with any of those guys.

Really? I'd argue every one of the above you could talk about as showing sustained success as an ace - except maybe Lester. Zack Greinke has exactly 1 season you could call "ace" caliber. While he has the stuff, there is absolutely the mentality of being an ace - and, based on his past, how the hell do we know if he has it?

How can one disagree with the statement that Greinke has a ways to go - might be a short ways, might be a long ways - but a definite ways to go before he's an "Ace"?

I think based on his career, saying that Greinke isn't an ace is an absolutely fair statement. Did Goldstein saying he couldn't be an ace? He did not...but Greinke still has a LOT to prove in the "ace" regards.

Give me one guy for one game that I HAVE to win and Greinke is definitely right there with any of those guys, and I'd certainly take him over a couple of them. If you're calling Lester an Ace, then Greinke HAS to be there too.

Saying you'd put Greinke on the same level as Sabathia, Lee, and Halladay makes you out of your goddamn mind.

2009 was as good as any pitcher in the last decade - 229 innings, 2.16era, 1.07 WHIP, 51/242 bb/k.......

I like Greinke a lot, but lets see him do it more than one season before annointing him one of the top pitchers in the game.

If you include Greinke, I feel like you have to include Liriano, Oswalt, Santana, Haren, Price, Ubaldo.

Well if you get to that point than you might as well just start breaking down all the pitchers into their tiers.

Perennial Aces...50/50 Aces...Fringe Aces...Solid 2's, etc.

Mets wrote:2009 was as good as any pitcher in the last decade - 229 innings, 2.16era, 1.07 WHIP, 51/242 bb/k.......

I like Greinke a lot, but lets see him do it more than one season before annointing him one of the top pitchers in the game.

If you include Greinke, I feel like you have to include Liriano, Oswalt, Santana, Haren, Price, Ubaldo.

I can understand somewhat not including Greinke in the ACE category....but why then does he include Weaver, when weaver's best season still ranks second to Greinke's best season.

Tigers wrote:I can understand somewhat not including Greinke in the ACE category....but why then does he include Weaver, when weaver's best season still ranks second to Greinke's best season.

Simple. Weaver pitches on a coast. Greinke has only pitched in the Midwest.

End Midwest inferiority complex rant.

Royals wrote:

Tigers wrote:I can understand somewhat not including Greinke in the ACE category....but why then does he include Weaver, when weaver's best season still ranks second to Greinke's best season.

Simple. Weaver pitches on a coast. Greinke has only pitched in the Midwest.

End Midwest inferiority complex rant.

Weird.
Those usually come from Aaron.
Granted, the MW arguably is inferior to the coasts.

I have issues with the list, the Midwest argument ain't one, I'll hold off on that for when the 4th place Red Sox are still getting all the prime time games in August.

The problem I think is the baseball vernacular. Every team has an "ace" as that is what your #1 is. There's a difference between an ace and a true ace. A true ace is going to be a #1 on almost every team. There's only a handful in baseball at a time.

Felix, Sabathia, Lester, Lincecum, Halladay, Lee, Verlander, Kershaw, Greinke, Weaver

Out of that, you can't include Kershaw or Weaver. I can see arguing that Greinke isn't one as well. A healthy Wainwright is one, that's the only omission from the list. I think Lester can be called one after this year, but he needs one more year IMO.

You won't be saying that about Kershaw for much longer.

Cardinals wrote:I have issues with the list, the Midwest argument ain't one, I'll hold off on that for when the 4th place Red Sox are still getting all the prime time games in August.

The problem I think is the baseball vernacular. Every team has an "ace" as that is what your #1 is. There's a difference between an ace and a true ace. A true ace is going to be a #1 on almost every team. There's only a handful in baseball at a time.

Felix, Sabathia, Lester, Lincecum, Halladay, Lee, Verlander, Kershaw, Greinke, Weaver

Out of that, you can't include Kershaw or Weaver. I can see arguing that Greinke isn't one as well. A healthy Wainwright is one, that's the only omission from the list. I think Lester can be called one after this year, but he needs one more year IMO.

Couldn't agree more on the vernacular argument (yes, agreeing, end of the world... today IS 4/19/11 after all). But I think the true ace list is too long. If Lester needs just one more good year, I'd argue the same about Greinke. Less longevity, but more true brilliance. For true aces, so-called once-in-a-generation type talents I think you've realy only got three guys. Felix, Halladay, Lincecum. Of the others, Greinke has the most potential to make the leap and join them. Whether he can do that is up in the air.

And yes, the red sox or yankees would still be on primetime in August over the royals or cardinals or most any midwest team regardless of record because they will draw the most viewers and thus, make the most money for the networks. Welcome to the free market economy.

Padres wrote:

Cardinals wrote:I have issues with the list, the Midwest argument ain't one, I'll hold off on that for when the 4th place Red Sox are still getting all the prime time games in August.

The problem I think is the baseball vernacular. Every team has an "ace" as that is what your #1 is. There's a difference between an ace and a true ace. A true ace is going to be a #1 on almost every team. There's only a handful in baseball at a time.

Felix, Sabathia, Lester, Lincecum, Halladay, Lee, Verlander, Kershaw, Greinke, Weaver

Out of that, you can't include Kershaw or Weaver. I can see arguing that Greinke isn't one as well. A healthy Wainwright is one, that's the only omission from the list. I think Lester can be called one after this year, but he needs one more year IMO.

Couldn't agree more on the vernacular argument (yes, agreeing, end of the world... today IS 4/19/11 after all). But I think the true ace list is too long. If Lester needs just one more good year, I'd argue the same about Greinke. Less longevity, but more true brilliance. For true aces, so-called once-in-a-generation type talents I think you've realy only got three guys. Felix, Halladay, Lincecum. Of the others, Greinke has the most potential to make the leap and join them. Whether he can do that is up in the air.

And yes, the red sox or yankees would still be on primetime in August over the royals or cardinals or most any midwest team regardless of record because they will draw the most viewers and thus, make the most money for the networks. Welcome to the free market economy.

I realize you hate the Yankees, but on what planet is Sabathia not an ace?

I know I spend too much time on Facebook when I read a comment and find myself looking for the "Like" button...lol

I'd take any of those three guys in a matchup against any other pitcher in baseball, including Sabathia. But put any 2 of those 3 head to head and I'd have a hell of a time picking a favorite. That's how I draw the line at the top and Sabathia doesn't make that cut.

I think we can put Josh Johnson in that class, King Felix hasnt been that much better for longer, if at all.

Rockies wrote:I think we can put Josh Johnson in that class, King Felix hasnt been that much better for longer, if at all.

Ah, Jake, you're such a funny guy! Johnson's total IP over his career is a definite issue. In spite of being two years older than Felix, he's got 500 fewer IP in the majors and has had issues with staying on the field. IMO his performances on the field aren't nearly brilliant enough to make up (at the point) for his shortage of innings.