IBC

You knew at some point McGwire was going to come clean.



http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=A ... &type=lgns

<- (Yawn) (Goes back to work).

Does Mac think that 'coming clean' will get him in the hall? Because it sure as hell shouldn't. This isn't much differnt than Rose admittinng he bets on basebal. Nothing we didn't know already and just proves what skeezes they are.

The Baseball Hall of Fame is a crock of shit anyway. Mac shouldn't care.

Padres wrote:Does Mac think that 'coming clean' will get him in the hall? Because it sure as hell shouldn't. This isn't much differnt than Rose admittinng he bets on basebal. Nothing we didn't know already and just proves what skeezes they are.

There is a very fundamental difference between this and Pete Rose. Since 1919 baseball has had one very simple rule that has hung in every clubhouse on every level, with clear enforcement guidelines and expectations, and that rule is, DO NOT BET ON BASEBALL.

On steroids, on the other hand, players were given absolutely no guidance, and one could reasonably argue they were tacitly encouraged to use them. Pete Rose deserves worse than Mac and the steroid guys because by breaking the rule he broke he also gave baseball the middle finger on the one thing that baseball cares about the most. Mac and the steroid guys extended baseball a helping hand, and the biggest hypocrite is the guy who enjoyed everything they did and now wants to throw them under the bus for it.

At the end of the day, I think we all just have to recognize that we were watching the "Steriod Era" in baseball and that a large percentage of the players we were watching were using steriods during the past 15 years.

Baseball turned a blind eye to the whole issue for many years. It is what it is......put an asteric by it and move on.

McGwire didn't do this for the Hall of Fame at all. He did it for himself and for the Cardinals so that he can go on being a hitting coach.

I forgive Big Mac and recognize him as 1 of the greatest masters of hitting.

However, if McGwire does follow through on LaRussa's goofy plan to join the team as a pinch hitter in September I'm sure he'll be doing it for the Hall of Fame, because it will push his eligibility back another 5 years and give people a new story to think about instead of the roids.

Orioles wrote:McGwire didn't do this for the Hall of Fame at all. He did it for himself and for the Cardinals so that he can go on being a hitting coach.

I forgive Big Mac and recognize him as 1 of the greatest masters of hitting.

Ummm....the whole hitting coach/apology thing? He's doing ALL of it to make the Hall of Fame.

Nationals wrote:

Orioles wrote:McGwire didn't do this for the Hall of Fame at all. He did it for himself and for the Cardinals so that he can go on being a hitting coach.

I forgive Big Mac and recognize him as 1 of the greatest masters of hitting.

Ummm....the whole hitting coach/apology thing? He's doing ALL of it to make the Hall of Fame.

That's just stupid. Even as a player back in the day he always talked about wanting to be a hitting coach, and since he's retired he ran a hitting facility where the Duncan brothers, Skip Schumaker and Matt Holliday among others would go to train under him. The Colorado Rockies have offered their hitting coach job to him twice. For him, this is simply what he wants to do, and I don't think it'll phase him the slightest bit if he misses the Hall.

Orioles wrote:

Nationals wrote:

Orioles wrote:McGwire didn't do this for the Hall of Fame at all. He did it for himself and for the Cardinals so that he can go on being a hitting coach.

I forgive Big Mac and recognize him as 1 of the greatest masters of hitting.

Ummm....the whole hitting coach/apology thing? He's doing ALL of it to make the Hall of Fame.

That's just stupid. Even as a player back in the day he always talked about wanting to be a hitting coach, and since he's retired he ran a hitting facility where the Duncan brothers, Skip Schumaker and Matt Holliday among others would go to train under him. The Colorado Rockies have offered their hitting coach job to him twice. For him, this is simply what he wants to do, and I don't think it'll phase him the slightest bit if he misses the Hall.

First of all, appreciate being called stupid for no apparent reason - that always goes over well.

Second, so all he talked about was wanting to be a hitting coach - and then he turned down an opportunity to be a hitting coach? And he's running a hitting facility where he is out of the public image, struggles in his initial runs on the Hall of Fame ballot, and then all of a sudden decides he really does want to become a hitting coach? With LaRussa - the most egotistical manager perhaps in all of sports - asking him? And this has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the Hall of Fame? Even AFTER LaRussa basically admitted he might suspend McGwire's clock by ACTIVATING HIM AS A PINCH HITTER?

Listen, we all collected baseball cards - and a part of me still thinks Donnie Baseball should be in the Hall of Fame - but to act like this has NOTHING to do with the Hall of Fame seems to be at least a TAD naive. Just like thinking Don Mattingly should be in the Hall of Fame. We're all guilty of it, but reason does have to set in at some point.

I called the comments stupid for very good reason. He and Tony LaRussa are good friends. He described calling him to explain that he took steroids as like having to call his father and tell him. I don't think he was capable of returning unless it was with Tony. Also, if you knew McGwire the person, you'd know he hates attention. When he retired he ducked out of the way completely since it was the first time in his life when he was able to be out of the spot light. He was able to be a part of baseball in a small role while staying out of the spotlight. Tony approached him about the job, and he finally felt fit to address the public and be done with it. Why would he go through this with the Rockies when it was clearly the hardest thing he's ever done (and he stated this many times).

If you know LaRussa, you'll know that he says crazy things all the time... granted he does go through with it sometimes, like playing Schumaker at 2nd, but I know I'd love to see him pinch hit, even though it won't happen.

So, to get this straight, Mark McGwire really really really really really wanted to be a hitting coach - but ONLY for Tony LaRussa?

Maybe I've been jaded enough by being in the sports business, but I have a hard time seeing this as a heck of a lot more than feeding LaRussa's ego by having him believe he's helping Mac get in the Hall of Fame, the Cardinals selling a few more tickets, and McGwire agreeing to help his status and relieve the burden that he placed on himself. To think that McGwire is the most qualified hitting coach available seems a tad tough to believe...

Listen, there may certainly be part of McGwire that really wants this - that I don't doubt. That this is all about just helping some Cardinals hit? Don't buy it. It's the Hitting Coach's job to create and spread the philosophy of hitting at the MLB level down through the MiLB system. Don Mattingly spent years at Yankees Spring Trainings and as a roving MiLB instructor before he took the job for the Yankees. Mark McGwire simply is not qualified for this position. Mac might end up being great - and the Cards may be making a hell of an educated guess - but you honestly believe this has zero to do with Mac Hall chances, LaRussa's ego, or the ability to sell some tickets?

Nationals wrote:but you honestly believe this has zero to do with Mac Hall chances, LaRussa's ego, or the ability to sell some tickets?

Not at all. I think we all know he has no shot at the hall. I see no way this has anything to do with LaRussa's ego and the Cardinals do just fine selling tickets with or without McGwire.

The Cardinals played their games to 88.1% capacity last year - which is down off a 3 year average of 91.6% capacity. 3.5% delta is an average of almost 1,650 seats per game, spread over a season is 133,650 tickets. Priced at ~$25 per seat, that's $3,341,250 in revenue. What's the cost of McGwire? Maybe $250-300k?

At $25 per seat, that's what, only 123 seats per game until you make a profit on him? This doesn't include premium seating #'s (which are not counted in attendance), new season ticket sales, and on-the-fence renewals, which could very easily translate to somewhere in an additional 7 figures.

For teams not named "Yankees" or "Red Sox," the vast amount of revenue an organization brings in is from ticket sales (it's about 70% for NBA teams, so I'll gather similar for MLB teams).

And what's the profit to the Cardinals if Mac makes the Hall, as their Coach? HA!!! The numbers above his $250k salary become ludicrous. Far more than any inadequacies he has as a hitting coach. And if he turns out to be a good hitting coach? Sound the bell, school's back in sucker...

If you think teams don't dream about the different between 88% capacity and 93% capacity (the 3 year high point), and scheme of EVERY possible way to earn an extra dollar, you are absolutely, positively, 100% fooling yourself.

go take a look at attendance after Matt Holliday was signed. it skyrocketted, and re-signing him should help keep those numbers sustainable

I don't know why I'm even discussing this. DeWitt and Mozeliak both objected to bringing in McGwire but gave in after Tony convinced them that he will benefit them greatly as his hitting coach. I know you think the job should be developed internally, but LaRussa does not bring up coaches, he prefers to coach with people he's comfortable working with. Look at his long time relationship with Jocketty, Duncan, McKay, Oquendo, and even Marty Mason to an extent.

To say Mac isn't qualified for the position is pretty asinine. It's the decision of the manager and management who they want to be the hitting coach. To say a guy with Hall of Fame numbers isn't qualified is dumb, especially when the manager has watched his work ethic for his entire career and watched how seriously he takes the game and his swing and approach. That's great for Mattingly and the Yankees that he had to spend years as a hitting instructor. Donnie Baseball also isn't 1/3rd of the hitter McGwire was. Is it relevant? Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sure why you have to have a certain amount of experience toiling in extended spring training teaching a bunch of 16-19 year olds before you can be the hitting coach of the MLB team.

Spring Training and Extended Spring Training are used as massive opportunities for the teams to drive organizational hitting philosophies in a controlled and populated environment. It is the EXACT spot that "Hitting-Coach-to-Be" should be learning what it takes to be an MLB hitting coach - and how to drive organizational philosophy throughout the system.

I realize you two both love McGwire - but I'm not predicting failure here. McGwire could turn out to be terrific. But I'd imagine that I could pull the number of people who have gone from batting cages to an MLB Hitting Coach on one hand. To say he's unqualified doesn't mean he won't succeed at the job - it just means that he's unqualified for it. Tom Hanks was unqualified for his job as a VP of Product Development in the movie "Big," but he sure did a hell of a job. I've been told by more than one team that I'm not qualified to run a Ticket Sales department because I never sold before the NBA, but I've had success in all my opportunities since.

I'm saying the thought that his has absolutely NOTHING to do with financials or Mac making the Hall of Fame is naive at best. A team will not stop trying to sell tickets - EVER! Even if they sell out, they are looking at long-term retention of ticket purchasers, and how to create, promote, and sell new premium inventory. And even with Holliday, the Cardinals did not sell out their games. Also, the team leaked any story because they wanted to see public reaction before they made any signing - it is a controversial move - in sports, you usually always leak a story to gauge public opinion first. A team can keep something quiet if they want to keep something quiet - I promise you that. When I was at the NBA, we knew about the Donaghy scandal (specifically because some of us would be in Las Vegas - me included) about a week before it leaked. Then it leaked, then it came public.

And I'll leave you with this - in the 00's decade, including the Tex/Sabathia signings, the day Mattingly was announced as hitting coach was the 7th biggest off-season ticket sales day they had. And it's not like the Yanks are averse to off-season announcements...Believe what you want, but I've seen how Coach's and Manager's can generate revenue for a team.

As much as I may not agree with Z about him being "unqualified" He is 100% correct about ticket sales. Remember when Billy Donovan briefly left Florida to go to the Orlando Magic...."Donovan's hiring Thursday prompted the sale of 200 Magic season tickets by Friday afternoon." -http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=2892334

200 Season Ticket Sales is a lot in 1 night especially for a program that was hurting big time in 2007.

The Cardinals did not want him as their hitting coach... so how the hell does him getting a job have anything to do with the team wanting to improve ticket sales?

Oh boy...Do you know from inside sources that they were against the McGwire signing? Because I'd argue that if you weren't in that room, that there's a very good chance they used that as white noise to see if their fanbase would be against a McGwire signing.

The Cardinals are in the business of making money - and winning games, but only if the two can coexist - it's money first. Unfortunately, we learn that over, and over, and over again - only you as Cardinals fans, and me as a Yankee fan, don't feel those pains as much as the rest of the teams do. If you think the Cardinals aren't looking for any conceivable angle to monetize anything they do (even above and beyond winning baseball games), then you might want to read some books on the sports industry.

The Yanks chopped 12,000 spectator seats off the old Yankee Stadium - yet the size of the stadium did not vary much at all. Do you know where those seats went? Into creating more suites, club seats, and other premium seating ventures. Premium seating, again, is not counted in "Attendance" - but it is a MAJOR revenue stream for teams.

Go to the Cardinals website - in the first 5 articles in the news box, 3 are on McGwire - and the other two are about - wait for it...wait for it...TICKET SALES. No articles on anyone else on the team - McGwire, TICKET SALES, McGwire, McGwire, TICKET SALES. Also - what's directly to the right of the article? SALES (MERCH AND TICKET)! What's below the article? TICKET SALES. I'm sorry if I'm spoiling Christmas morning here...but, by the looks of it, they appear just fine having him in the house - and more than willing (and ready) to take advantage of it.

Tony LaRussa in an interview said that both the owner (Bill DeWitt) and general manager (John Mozeliak) were reluctant. I said it twice before.

Re: Ticket SALES! I'd wager that most if not every team currently has multiple "boxes" of ticket sales. And the correlation between Billy Donovan (head coach/ recruiter/roster builder) and Mark McGwire (hitting coach) isn't exactly in concert. One affects the team/program much more than the other and I'd wager that any ticket sales spike from a head coach would be much greater than that of a hitting coach. You're not exactly spoiling Christmas by telling me that the Cardinals and every MLB team wants to sell tickets. Gee, who would ever think a business wants to make money? Crazy talk. Hope it didn't take you that long to figure that out.

That said, bringing McGwire in isn't something to generate ticket sales. Might it come up in conversation "Oh hey, maybe somehow by having Mac in the dugout we'll sell a few more tickets here and there"? Sure, that could come up. But did they say "Oh lets hire Mark McGwire so we can have a 3% (if even) spike in attendance this coming year?" I'm going to go ahead and say if you think that then you might as well just stick to watching wrestling or soap operas. The Cardinals brought McGwire in because he's a favorite of LaRussa and LaRussa is in love with his work ethic and his hitting philosophy. Is it that tough to believe?

Padres wrote:Does Mac think that 'coming clean' will get him in the hall? Because it sure as hell shouldn't. This isn't much differnt than Rose admittinng he bets on basebal. Nothing we didn't know already and just proves what skeezes they are.

I hope you refer to Manny and Ortiz as skeezes too.

Orioles wrote:Tony LaRussa in an interview said that both the owner (Bill DeWitt) and general manager (John Mozeliak) were reluctant. I said it twice before.

Right - they were lying. Sports marketers lie to you - constantly. We apologize.

Pirates wrote:Re: Ticket SALES! I'd wager that most if not every team currently has multiple "boxes" of ticket sales. And the correlation between Billy Donovan (head coach/ recruiter/roster builder) and Mark McGwire (hitting coach) isn't exactly in concert. One affects the team/program much more than the other and I'd wager that any ticket sales spike from a head coach would be much greater than that of a hitting coach. You're not exactly spoiling Christmas by telling me that the Cardinals and every MLB team wants to sell tickets. Gee, who would ever think a business wants to make money? Crazy talk. Hope it didn't take you that long to figure that out.

That said, bringing McGwire in isn't something to generate ticket sales. Might it come up in conversation "Oh hey, maybe somehow by having Mac in the dugout we'll sell a few more tickets here and there"? Sure, that could come up. But did they say "Oh lets hire Mark McGwire so we can have a 3% (if even) spike in attendance this coming year?" I'm going to go ahead and say if you think that then you might as well just stick to watching wrestling or soap operas. The Cardinals brought McGwire in because he's a favorite of LaRussa and LaRussa is in love with his work ethic and his hitting philosophy. Is it that tough to believe?

The day that Billy Donovan sells more tickets than Mark McGwire, for anything, anywhere outside of Florida is a day that pigs will actually fly. People aren't buying tickets beacuse they think he's a transcendant hitting coach - they are buying tickets because he's Mark Goddamn McGwire. The man's been filling stands since 1987. People didn't buy the tickets for the Yanks because Don Mattingly was going to make A-Rod an .800 hitter - they bought them because he's Donnie Fucking Baseball. And we New Yorkers love Donnie like you St. Louisians like Mac.

If you don't think cost analysis is done on every player signing, coach signing, manager hiring, front office change, etc. - then you truly don't know anything about sports business. Remember when the Yanks set a price on A-Rod? And A-Rod went around Boras to agree to that price? The Yankees were firm in their resolve that this is what A-Rod was worth on and off the field. And even that "on the field" part is a crock of shit, too. On the field means "winning games" and "winning games" translates to "more money". Money is involved in every decision all over, everywhere.

AAAA hitters last in AAA for years and years - because they help AAA teams win games. AAA teams give a portion of their revenue to...PRO TEAMS. As long as Mike Hessman hits 30 bombs a year in AAA, he'll have a job.

Very few teams are ever in a position to hire a player to coach who can sell tickets - the Yankees and Cardinals took advantage of that opportunity in different ways. The Yanks groomed one, the Cardinals plucked one. You keep talking like I think this will blow up in their face - I'd imagine Mac will do just fine. But with ZERO prior experience as a coach of any sort, saying that McGwire was qualified for the position is just wrong. LaRussa's taking a calculated risk - which was ultimately agreed to by upper management because that risk is completely and 100% off-set by...REVENUE!!!! Which the Cardinals tested by...LEAKING THE STORY!!!!

In the words of Dane Cook...it's a vicious cycle.