IBC

Josh Hamilton played in game 163 when he shouldn't have. All in all its probably my fault for not noticing and saying something. Im not at all suggesting replaying the game because Nils won fair and square for sure. But I do think that its only fair if he played in that game he should have to play for the remainder of the week.

I realize its a tricky situation but I just dont think its fair to pick and choose when certain guys can and cant play. Im not really sure what else to say but I just figured id point it out.

Not real sure I follow the logic here. Your proposing that if Hamilton is supposed to be deactivated he shouldn't be because you didn't catch it in time for him not to play in game 163. A couple of problems with that, first there is some debate that Hamilton should be deactivated at all because it is possible he would have finished out the season if there was a chance the Rangers were going to the playoffs. Second, ultimately the responsibility falls on the teams that are playing to make sure that players that are ineligible aren't playing and to try and catch that ahead of time so a ruling can be made if needed (it doesn't look like it mattered much anyways because Hamilton was a non-factor in the final game anyways).

I think its more that im confused why if Hamilton came back for 2 games he was allowed to play for such an extended period of time.

I was forced to deactivate him in Sept until he came back.

It was ruled that Hamilton now will not be allowed to play for me in the playoffs, which I highly disagree with as he even admitted he would be able to at least pinch hit if they'd still be in the race and it was not that he was physically unable to play, they just didnt want him to play through the pain (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd ... Id=rss_mlb) I think if the Rangers had been in the position of Minnesota vying for that last spot, he'd be more than willing to play through the pain.

But, I am supposing there is nothing I can do regarding the exco's decision before my playoff series starts.

"I think it's smart," Hamilton said. "The best I can do is pinch-hit and even if I got on base, they would have to pinch-run for me." That's right in that article. I did not have a vote in the process in ExCo since I am playing against you, but I think regardless of who had Hamilton I would be in favor of shutting him down. He physically is unable to play. In the AL especially you're not going to be wasting a roster spot in the LDS roster on a guy that can maybe at best hit once per game and then immediately pinch run for. "t's a good move. I've got to be honest with myself and do what's best for the team. After talking with Wash and Jamie, we decided this was the best course of action." I don't see anything in here that would say that Hamilton is available to play regularly and isn't hurt.

Again, I didn't/don't have a vote in this matter, but if it's going to be at the center of my series I will be piping up.

Doesnt matter if he can play regularly. We don't have a "can't play regularly" DL. If they'd been in the race, he could have played through the pain, even if it was just 1 pinch hit AB per game. He went 3-5 in his last game, he could still be effective. Just was hurting doing it.

If there weren't 40 man rosters you really think he wouldn't be DL'ed? At the time he was shut down Texas was still alive mathematically. Regardless, I'm done posting in this thread since again I don't have a say in it.

Pirates wrote:If there weren't 40 man rosters you really think he wouldn't be DL'ed? At the time he was shut down Texas was still alive mathematically. Regardless, I'm done posting in this thread since again I don't have a say in it.

You sure that is true? That's not what this says. Now maybe they were still mathematically alive in the wildcard race, essentially needing to win all their remaining games while Boston lost all of their remaining games (basically an unreal situation) but that's a pretty big reach.


Sep 30 OF Josh Hamilton's star-crossed, injury-plagued 2009 season is over. The final culprit: a pinched nerve in his lower back that simply has not let up since he suffered the injury nearly a month ago. Manager Ron Washington met with Hamilton on Tuesday, a day after the Rangers were eliminated from the AL West playoff race, and the pair made the decision. "He will get treatment and hopefully get well," Washington said. "He will have no activity other than rehabbing for the rest of the season. We hope to get him into his winter program and get him ready and in shape for spring training."


Hamilton played in games on September 25th and 26th. He got 4 AB's on the 25th and went 2-6 on the 26th with 2 doubles. Unless there was a new major injury that occured I don't see how we can justify saying he would have been shut down if the Rangers were still in the playoff hunt. The above quote clearly states that he wasn't shut down until AFTER the Rangers were eliminated from the playoff race.

I'm not sure what information the ExCo was acting under when they made their decision, however it seems if it was the same information JP is saying above, then it may have been inaccurate and should probably be revisited before the first round games begin.

I'm not on the ExCo but this appears to be a pretty major issue impacting a playoff series and would seem to be a case where a decision was made based off of inaccurate information.

Hamilton last played on the 26th. The Rangers were eliminated on the 29th. Why wouldn't he have played on the 27th, 28th and 29th if he were healthy and able to play? The Rangers then decided to officially shut him down, but if he were so healthy why wouldn't he play while their season was on the line? Especially since two of those games were vs the Angels who the Rangers trailed. That doesn't make much sense to me for a guy that is one of their best hitters to be unable to play in games they desperately need to win to make the playoffs.

I quite agree with Ropers. Based on the information above, I'm not sure I see a reason he shouldn't be playing...

Pirates wrote:Hamilton last played on the 26th. The Rangers were eliminated on the 29th. Why wouldn't he have played on the 27th, 28th and 29th if he were healthy and able to play? The Rangers then decided to officially shut him down, but if he were so healthy why wouldn't he play while their season was on the line? Especially since two of those games were vs the Angels who the Rangers trailed. That doesn't make much sense to me for a guy that is one of their best hitters to be unable to play in games they desperately need to win to make the playoffs.

Nobody said he was 100% healthy....but he was heathly enough to play on the 25th and 26th and play full games....not just pitch hit. The Rangers were a long shot to catch the Angels or the RedSox at that point so him continuing to play while in pain didn't make sense. I believe the Rangers were 6 games back of the BoSox on the 27th with 8 games to go.

Are you going to tell me that you know specifically that if the Rangers were 1 game back during the week of the 27th instead of 6 games back that Hamilton wouldn't have tried to continue playing? It looks to me like it is a clear case where Hamilton came back and played two full games......the Rangers were still a huge longshot to catch the two teams they needed to catch and then they finally shut him down after they lost the first game of the Angels series and were eliminated from catching the one team they had any control over (due to the head to head series) at the time.

In my opinion, we don't know if Hamilton wouldn't have tried to come back and play in the 2nd or 3rd game of the Angels series if the Rangers had won the first game. His back might have still been too tight to play on Sunday or Monday after his back to back games on Friday and Saturday but that doesn't mean he might not have been able to go again on Tuesday or Wednesday.

Now if Hamilton hadn't played in the games on the 25th and 26th I would agree that Hamilton shouldn't be playing in the IBC. However, since he did come back and play in the MLB and played full games before finally being shut down when the Rangers were, for all sense and purpose, done. I don't see how you can make the arguement that Hamilton wouldn't have kept trying to play if the Rangers were within reasonable striking distance of the wildcard.

Josh Hamilton is not healthy enough to play. He said it himself. I could maybe pinch hit, but they'd have to pinch run for me. So fine, I say if Nils gets to play him in the playoffs, we take the man at his word, he can pinch hit and has to be pinch run for if he gets on base. Seems like a fair solution to me. Otherwise he doesn't play. The guy is not healthy. Why not look at the rules shall we?

3. Players who are shown to not be playing due to physical ailment are considered injured.

He is not playing because he is hurt, therefore he doesn't play in the playoffs. Let's quit having a pissing match about it

Well let's talk to Bren then cause also in those rules it states:

1. The Commissioner (Bren Dillon) and Co-Commissioner (Nils Erickson) are responsible for the maintenance and upkeep of the league and were responsible for its founding and creation. Their responsibilities are outlined throughout this document and include the creation and management of these IBC rules.

See, I think this is where the rule gets totally hazy for the IBC. Josh Hamilton actually said he could play. He didn't say he could not play, he said he would be able to step on the playing field and play.

If he and the training staff clear him to play, it becomes the Manager's jurisdiction to actually play that man. If Washington told Hamilton to run out to center field, he would - though it could lead to a more long-term injury. Still, he is technically able to play - Washington would just never do it to him. In this league, Nils is Hamilton's Ron Washington - so if Nils tells Hamilton to run out to center field (or left, or right, or DH), he should be able to do it.

Cardinals wrote:Josh Hamilton is not healthy enough to play. He said it himself. I could maybe pinch hit, but they'd have to pinch run for me. So fine, I say if Nils gets to play him in the playoffs, we take the man at his word, he can pinch hit and has to be pinch run for if he gets on base. Seems like a fair solution to me. Otherwise he doesn't play. The guy is not healthy. Why not look at the rules shall we?

3. Players who are shown to not be playing due to physical ailment are considered injured.

He is not playing because he is hurt, therefore he doesn't play in the playoffs. Let's quit having a pissing match about it

You know very well that we've looked at injuries in September and based it on available information and whether or not a team shut a player down due to them being out of the playoff race where that player may have still been able to play. Hamilton clearly came back and played on the 25th and 26th. He didn't just pitch hit, he played full games, then was shut down AFTER it become apparent that the Rangers had no logical chance to make the playoffs.

If we applied the DL ruling literally like you are trying to do above, then every player than is shut down in September by MLB teams that are out of the playoff race and no longer are playing should be shut down in the IBC. We have never applied the rule that way.

I don't believe anyone here can say one way or the other, that Hamilton would not have continued to try and play the last 7-8 games of the season if the Rangers had a legitimate shot at that point.

Plus the most obvious evidence that you are using to say Hamilton should not be allowed to play in the IBC is the reason he should be allowed to play. If Hamilton himself said he could still pitch hit, which would allow him to be on a roster, that makes him eligible to play in the IBC.

Since when did we start saying that if a guy is only a pitch hitter in the MLB that he can only be a pitch hitter in the IBC? That's ridiculous.

It is beginning to sound to me like there is other motivation at work here and not just the fair application of the DL rule.

Royals wrote:See, I think this is where the rule gets totally hazy for the IBC. Josh Hamilton actually said he could play. He didn't say he could not play, he said he would be able to step on the playing field and play.

If he and the training staff clear him to play, it becomes the Manager's jurisdiction to actually play that man. If Washington told Hamilton to run out to center field, he would - though it could lead to a more long-term injury. Still, he is technically able to play - Washington would just never do it to him. In this league, Nils is Hamilton's Ron Washington - so if Nils tells Hamilton to run out to center field (or left, or right, or DH), he should be able to do it.

First of all, this (sorting out injuries late in the year) is absolutely the worst challenge we have to face in terms of fairness and rules. There is positively no way to get it right. We've chosen accuracy over fairness on this, because while going case by case allows us to get closer to reality, it means that we are certain to be less consistent and therefore certain to be less fair.

That said, prior to Jake raising the matter, when it was posed in exco I voted that he should not be active. The timeline is pretty simple. He was trying his hardest to get back, obviously, to play in meaningful games. He rushed himself to be back before he was healthy, tried to play, and after two games, he couldn't. He looped two balls down the line, but he was clearly, visibly in a lot of pain.

I completely understand where Nils is coming from, and when we start using guys' macho comments about how if it were game seven of the WS, they could go as our determining factor, it is likely that we will be inconsistent. I've bitched quite a bit about that in exco, as those guys can attest.

But the reason that I voted that he should not be active is that he tried to play and couldn't any more. Research Marlon Byrd's situation and compare the two. Byrd had every reason to stop playing after his injury, but he finished the season.

I lost Grady Sizemore, and realistically, my chance of the playoffs because he got shut down and had surgery early because the Indians were out of the race. He played through the pain all season. Every bit of evidence I had said "I'd play through this if we were winning." I still had to bench him even before he went on the DL. I don't see how this is any different. You've got a guy that's hurt, played all of two games, and then was shut down. If he could play, don't you think he'd have been in more than two? This is consistent with what he have done in the past and what we will do in the future

I'm so glad these issues aren't my problem anymore...

Tigers wrote:

Royals wrote:See, I think this is where the rule gets totally hazy for the IBC. Josh Hamilton actually said he could play. He didn't say he could not play, he said he would be able to step on the playing field and play.

If he and the training staff clear him to play, it becomes the Manager's jurisdiction to actually play that man. If Washington told Hamilton to run out to center field, he would - though it could lead to a more long-term injury. Still, he is technically able to play - Washington would just never do it to him. In this league, Nils is Hamilton's Ron Washington - so if Nils tells Hamilton to run out to center field (or left, or right, or DH), he should be able to do it.

First of all, this (sorting out injuries late in the year) is absolutely the worst challenge we have to face in terms of fairness and rules. There is positively no way to get it right. We've chosen accuracy over fairness on this, because while going case by case allows us to get closer to reality, it means that we are certain to be less consistent and therefore certain to be less fair.

That said, prior to Jake raising the matter, when it was posed in exco I voted that he should not be active. The timeline is pretty simple. He was trying his hardest to get back, obviously, to play in meaningful games. He rushed himself to be back before he was healthy, tried to play, and after two games, he couldn't. He looped two balls down the line, but he was clearly, visibly in a lot of pain.

I completely understand where Nils is coming from, and when we start using guys' macho comments about how if it were game seven of the WS, they could go as our determining factor, it is likely that we will be inconsistent. I've bitched quite a bit about that in exco, as those guys can attest.

But the reason that I voted that he should not be active is that he tried to play and couldn't any more. Research Marlon Byrd's situation and compare the two. Byrd had every reason to stop playing after his injury, but he finished the season.

I absolutely agree that this is the toughest part of applying the rules in the IBC.

What I disagree with is that anyone here really knows whether or not Hamilton would have played more games last week if the Rangers were still in the race. He's not officially on the DL so it comes down to whether or not he was still playing or could have beens till playing if the Rangers were still in the playoff race. The Rangers clearly waited to shut him down until they were out of the race.

I didn't watch the Rangers games, but as far as the "he looped two balls down the line" that doesn't appear to match up with the game play-by-play which states his double in the 8th inning was to deep center field. Plus if Hamilton was injured so badly that he couldn't do anything but hit, I'd have to believe he would have stopped at 1b on each hit rather than rounding 1st and going on to 2nd for both of them.

If he was able to play in any capacity and not on the DL, he should play here. We can't make judgments on how much a guy can play - so if someone says they could play, or if the team kept open the possibility of him playing and didn't declare an official season-ending or 2-wk+ shut-down at a time when they had some reasonable hope of the postseason, then we should err towards inclusion in the postseason. Hamilton killed one of my fantasy teams down the stretch b/c no actual decision was made to shut him down until the final week or so. As of 9/29, they was still some possibility of him playing, however small. That he could only play occasionally then had to take a few days off and rest his back doesn't matter. Every year Milton Bradley is handled like this (trying to play once a week, then going down for 5 games) due to nagging injuries/ fits of rage/ cussing-out fans and making up with them, etc, and so long as he's not on the DL, he can be an ironman in the IBC and play every game. The only time Hamilton should have missed this year was his month or so on the DL. If he didn't serve that, then he should still have to (even if it means missing postseason games), tho that might be a separate issue.

If he could play, don't you think he'd have been in more than two?


The issue is that we don't know if he would have continued to play if the Rangers had a legitimate chance. He came back and played in two games and then was shut down when the Rangers chances had all but evaporated. He's not on the official DL list, so it comes down to whether or not he could have played again. He played recently and there is a good chance he could have continued to play sporatically (as his back allowed) if the Rangers were still in the race.

I actually agree with you on the Sizemore issue, but since they actually placed him on the official DL (the day after he played his last game) I could see where that falls considerably more under the DL rule.

i better not see anyone bring up Luis Gonzalez (except for me).

Mariners wrote:

Tigers wrote:

Royals wrote:See, I think this is where the rule gets totally hazy for the IBC. Josh Hamilton actually said he could play. He didn't say he could not play, he said he would be able to step on the playing field and play.

If he and the training staff clear him to play, it becomes the Manager's jurisdiction to actually play that man. If Washington told Hamilton to run out to center field, he would - though it could lead to a more long-term injury. Still, he is technically able to play - Washington would just never do it to him. In this league, Nils is Hamilton's Ron Washington - so if Nils tells Hamilton to run out to center field (or left, or right, or DH), he should be able to do it.

First of all, this (sorting out injuries late in the year) is absolutely the worst challenge we have to face in terms of fairness and rules. There is positively no way to get it right. We've chosen accuracy over fairness on this, because while going case by case allows us to get closer to reality, it means that we are certain to be less consistent and therefore certain to be less fair.

That said, prior to Jake raising the matter, when it was posed in exco I voted that he should not be active. The timeline is pretty simple. He was trying his hardest to get back, obviously, to play in meaningful games. He rushed himself to be back before he was healthy, tried to play, and after two games, he couldn't. He looped two balls down the line, but he was clearly, visibly in a lot of pain.

I completely understand where Nils is coming from, and when we start using guys' macho comments about how if it were game seven of the WS, they could go as our determining factor, it is likely that we will be inconsistent. I've bitched quite a bit about that in exco, as those guys can attest.

But the reason that I voted that he should not be active is that he tried to play and couldn't any more. Research Marlon Byrd's situation and compare the two. Byrd had every reason to stop playing after his injury, but he finished the season.

I absolutely agree that this is the toughest part of applying the rules in the IBC.

What I disagree with is that anyone here really knows whether or not Hamilton would have played more games last week if the Rangers were still in the race. He's not officially on the DL so it comes down to whether or not he was still playing or could have beens till playing if the Rangers were still in the playoff race. The Rangers clearly waited to shut him down until they were out of the race.

I didn't watch the Rangers games, but as far as the "he looped two balls down the line" that doesn't appear to match up with the game play-by-play which states his double in the 8th inning was to deep center field. Plus if Hamilton was injured so badly that he couldn't do anything but hit, I'd have to believe he would have stopped at 1b on each hit rather than rounding 1st and going on to 2nd for both of them.

My recollection was that both balls were pulled, but maybe one was in the RCF gap. The thing is, the fact that he fought through the pain and made it to second on that, in contrast to saying that he would have to be pinch run for, is actually an indication that he felt like he couldn't even do what he tried to do in those games - i.e. a worsening of condition, as opposed to the other way around. What I think we're not connecting on is the fact that he tried to play through the pain - and did for as long as he could - then couldn't any more. His comment about pinch hitting at best and needing a pinch runner was just an illustration of how incapacitated he felt like he was. These guys are under a lot of pressure and feel like they need to explain themselves when they are shut down.

I'm convinced that some of you are hard headed enough that I could obtain a letter from Dr. Meister and it wouldn't matter because you read a blip, but I am really not trying to change anyone's mind, just giving my rationale for my input on it, since I do actually follow this one team closely, watch all of their games, listen to their briefings, and write about them for the major newspaper in town. I don't care whether he plays or not, we are just trying to do our best to be consistent. If the league feels like he needs to play, we may need to re-evaluate how we approach injuries again, as Aaron said. It is VERY difficult to wade through.

This comes up every year as an issue, but it's not always as bad as this. Last season went rather smoothly, because most of the player statuses were fairly obvious. Then every couple of seasons there comes a debate like this because there's one or two guys that could go either way and things get a little heated. However, this is the way we've chosen to handle this situation, and personally, I think its the best way. It gets annoying sometimes, but its better than just eliminating every guy who decides to take the last two weeks off because his team is 20 games out.

In the past though, it seems to me, we've always given players the benefit of the doubt. If it's a 50/50 case like it is with Hamilton right now, we should let him play. Or, at least go with Aaron's compromise and allow him to pinch hit. There's no reason for us to want our postseason to feature less stars, or make it less competitive. It's October, and we've got the IBC's 8 best about to go at it for the Championship...don't we want it to as fairly competitive as possible?

No doubt, Hamilton is debatable. It could go either way. But a tie should go to the runner, or the player in this case. In the end, I don't care, I have nothing invested in this. It just seems like there's a legit argument to be made for Josh playing, so he should get to play.

The interesting part about Hamilton's last game on the 26th. The Rangers were leading that game 14-3 when he came up to bat in the 8th inning. A number of their players had already been pitch hit for or sub'd out in the blowout. The Rangers still had him bat in the bottom of the 8th, despite the blowout. It would seem if he was in such bad shape, he would have been the first player they would have taken out of the lineup in the blow out, but they didn't.

Maybe he tweaked the back a little more by legging out the 8th innning double into deep CF. I don't know.......I haven't seen anything that would indicate he did. Essentially, the Rangers were running on fumes at that stage anyways. What were they, 6 games back with 8 to go? Maybe Hamilton's back tightened up a bit from playing in the back to back games and he wouldn't have been able to play again until he got a couple days of treatment on his back to loosen it up again? Who knows?

I guess I just don't see the clear evidence that Hamilton couldn't have still played in a game or two during that last stretch if the Rangers were anywhere close to still contending. He doesn't have to be out there playing CF every day in order to be eligible to play in the IBC.

In my mind, our train of thought for DL decisions in September has always been......

1) is the player on the official DL list?


2) If he is not on the official DL list, is there clear evidence one way or the other that the player is or is not playing?


3) If the player has been "shut down early" by his MLB team, would that player still be able to play or contribute if his team was in the playoff race?


It is a grey area and one that doesn't have an easy solution because of the expansion of rosters in September and the way MLB teams shut players down early as they fall out of the playoff races. In this case, it looks to me to be clear that the Rangers shut Hamilton down as a result of their elimination in the AL West race and their chances of catching Boston in the Wildcard had all but evaporated.

Hamilton, himself said he could still hit. If the Rangers were still in the playoff race, the Rangers wouldn't have shut him down. If nothing else, he would have been a valuable late inning bat off the bench. As such, he should be eligible to play in the IBC.