Who wants their crow? Bren, Z et al

Cardinals · Post by **Cardinals** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:36 pm

RedSox wrote: JP called him an Elite catcher. We both agree that Elite is top 3 at the position. IMO, that's V-Mart, Mauer and Martin. JP argued McCann instead of V-Mart based on 2006. McCann's 2007 (.772 OPS) was still one of the 5 best among catchers and I think it's close to what he'll typically do. 2006 (.961 OPS) is not something he'll be doing on a regular basis or even close.

Royals wrote:Man I hate backing up Bren, but VMart is only 5 years older, and his level of consistency is much better then McCann's. I really hate to rail on McCann because I think he's a great player - but it's clear that VMart is better right now.

Royals wrote:You're right - I'm sure the Indians were PISSED they had VMart this year instead of McCann.

Face it, McCann is nice, but to say he's better then VMart right now is just flat out incorrect. Could he be better? Sure. Is he better? H-to-the-ELL no.

Royals wrote:JP, it just seems like you have some misplaced faith in McCann - that's all. I like him, he's good, he's just not in the same league as V-Mart, Mauer, or Martin - his career minor league OPS is .796, topping out at .835. The only anomaly in his entire professional baseball career seems to be that .960. He had NEVER hit over .300 in the minors, and has never hit above .290 in any full professional season besides 2006.

JP, I like you, but the numbers are solidly against you on this one. VMart's minor league career saw him post numbers incredibly similar to what he's accomplished in the MLB (.301/.373/.473 at MLB vs. .319/.391/.488 at MILB) - and that's OPS # doesn't reflect the 5 year upswing he's on.

Astros wrote: I think the REAL McCann is the one we saw in 2007, which is very good, but not elite. I would consider him at the very top of the second tier catchers.

And I also think he will be surpassed by my Navarro/Montero combo......or at least that's my hope. I'm sure a bunch of you would step up to take that wager....lol.

Royals wrote:JP - I will bet you $50 that McCann's 2008 OPS is not above the .879 that Victor Martinez had this year.

I'll be in CT this weekend and willing to shake on it...

Rays wrote:If Victor's projection bumps his D a little, I'd have to take him. Otherwise Martin.

RedSox wrote:Martin, IMO, is the top guy.

Marlins wrote:If this is a list of the best catchers in the game, you can't leave Posada off after the season he just had (his OPS was almost .100 pts better than Victor's - .970 - .879).

1. Martinez
2. Mauer
3. Martin
4. McCann
5. Posada

If this list was about who I'd want for the next 5 years....

1. Mauer
2. Martinez
3. Martin
4. McCann
5. Saltalamacchia

VMart .278/.337/.365, 2 HR 266 AB 701 OPS
Martin .279/.384/.395 13 HR 552 AB 779 OPS
Mauer .330/.415/.451 9 HR 528 AB 866 OPS
McCann .301/.374/.524 23 HR 508 AB 898 OPS

so the 3 Elite C's had a combined 24 HR to McCann's 23. Also McCann had the top OPS and 57 BB/ 64 SO BB/K Rate. And for what it's worth he stole 5 bases as well and wasn't caught.

Justice.

Royals · Post by **Royals** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:13 pm

congrats, he's clearly a hall of Famer after one season as arguably a top 3 Catcher.
he also sat out today to protect his .300 BA. Pussy.

Cardinals · Post by **Cardinals** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:20 pm

arguably? clearly was the class of C this year. I never claimed for him to be a hall of famer ,but i think if he can manage to put up a bunch of years like this he'll have a really good chance.

WhiteSox · Post by **WhiteSox** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:46 pm

McCann had a great year, but Mauer is clearly the best catcher in baseball.

BlueJays · Post by **BlueJays** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:23 pm

Speaking of crow.. How about mike fucking mussina? I recall a huge uproar, particularly from those within my division about me trading him to Cleveland.

He won number 20 today, has a mid 3 ERA and how about the k to BB ratio? washed up? Hardly.

Cardinals · Post by **Cardinals** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:25 pm

Yup he had a nice year.

Cardinals · Post by **Cardinals** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:25 pm

Yankees wrote:McCann had a great year, but Mauer is clearly the best catcher in baseball.

Not according to the OPS!

Yankees · Post by **Yankees** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:19 pm

Well I'd argue that my argument was that, going into this year, McCann wasn't a top 5 catcher. After this year, I'm sure you could argue he's at least top 3 - no Mauer, but definitely in the conversation with him.

Cardinals · Post by **Cardinals** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:22 pm

Royals wrote:W After this year, I'm sure you could argue he's at least top 3.

Really? You can only argue that he's top 3? give me a break. You guys cannot admit when you were wrong. Unreal.

Yankees · Post by **Yankees** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:24 pm

Well I said at least top 3, and then I said he's at least in the conversation with Mauer - what the fuck else do you want?

Astros · Post by **Astros** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:27 pm

Z, we all know Bren can't admit when he's wrong but I figured you'd admit it

Cardinals · Post by **Cardinals** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:27 pm

to actually state that he's in the top 3 of catchers instead of saying you could argue it. He clearly is.

Yankees · Post by **Yankees** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:07 pm

I'm admitting the dude's at least in the top 3 - which is a long way from where I had him last year. He's got some work to do to be better than Mauer, but he's certainly proven he's a player. You'd also have a hard time convincing me that this won't be a 3-way battle between Soto, McCann, and Mauer in the years to come. Hell of a year for Geovany in his first full run through.

And read my sentence. I said you could argue he's 'at least top 3' - meaning he's top 3 at the very least. Sorry for using big words like 'least' to confuse you.

Cardinals · Post by **Cardinals** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:09 pm

"Argue" that he's in the top 3, meaning that he's not necessarily there.

Cardinals · Post by **Cardinals** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:10 pm

Also, I'm confused, why can't he be considered better than Mauer? He had a higher OPS this year. I'm not saying he is better or isn't better, but to say Mauer is clearly better without any question is wrong.

Yankees · Post by **Yankees** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:36 pm

Least, meaning at worst. Having a tough time with this one, huh?

Mauer vs. McCann - 2008 Version (not even historical)
EQA - Mauer .317, McCann .307
RARP - Mauer 60.7, McCann 52.3
VORP - Mauer 55.2, McCann 51.8
WARP1 - Mauer 9.3, 7.4
WARP2 - Mauer 11.5, 8.9
WARP3 - Mauer 11.6, 9.0
FRAR - Mauer 29, McCann 19
FRAA - McCann 4, McCann -6

We ok here?

Yankees · Post by **Yankees** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:36 pm

Forgot to put McCann on the WARPs, sorry...

Rangers · Post by **Rangers** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:53 pm

The real question is whether any of these guys can hold off Wieters for more than a couple of months. Mauer with power baby.

Cardinals · Post by **Cardinals** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:52 am

I had forgotten about this. Since the 2008 season, McCann is second in WAR for catchers. Mauer is first and has major injury concerns and might be headed to 1B sooner rather than later.

Fwiw:

Mauer 21.5
McCann 17.8
Napoli 14.1
Molina 12.7
Martin 12.0
Martinez 11.4

It doesn't look like my faith in McCann was misplaced at all. You all owe me a beer.