Carlos Beltran the Auction

[Yankees]

That's not what you said at all. You said the end of the week.

This is why auctions are moronic.

I disagree. Holding an auction AND negotiating with the morons who PM you anyway is moronic. See Nils' previous auction for proof.

My point is that the whole auction process if moronic...but if you're going to post, you better do it...and I haven't seen a trade roll through the TRC yet. Otherwise you're just acting like a baby who doesn't get their way - "Wah, I didn't get enough for Beltran so I'm not trading him."

On any planet do I think Fister/Harden should get Beltran - good God no. But he is totally bitching out here...

[Royals]

That's not what you said at all. You said the end of the week.

This is why auctions are moronic.

I disagree. Holding an auction AND negotiating with the morons who PM you anyway is moronic. See Nils' previous auction for proof.

My point is that the whole auction process if moronic...but if you're going to post, you better do it...and I haven't seen a trade roll through the TRC yet. Otherwise you're just acting like a baby who doesn't get their way - "Wah, I didn't get enough for Beltran so I'm not trading him."

On any planet do I think Fister/Harden should get Beltran - good God no. But he is totally bitching out here...

Are you back on the "Nils is Bren" bandwagon? Or are you drinking mid-day again?

Personally, I've made it pretty clear in past auctions that I wouldn't close the deal without reaching a certain 'reserve' level. Nils never explicitly stated such a thing but the implication is pretty clear and obvious even without someone else's precedent.

Quit yer crying and go back to selling your JV league tickets.

[Yankees]

Ah yes, you must be talking about the JV league whose game last night outsold all the NHL & NBA games...

[Pirates]

and it beat them in tv ratings too, right?

[Yankees]

Since it wasn't a pre-scheduled game, it was on FOX Soccer. So to beat games on cable would be impossible.

However, ratings on ESPN2 for MLS games this season have crushed NHL ratings on VS.

So there's a fair trade-off...

[Astros]

Everyone gets ESPN2, Versus is usually on an expanded package of some sort. Also, NHL on Versus is on in prime time, MLS never is

[Mets]

I get Vs. and I can never find it. I like Hockey a lot, but NHL doesn't make it very easy to be a fan.

[Athletics]

I am great fan of hockey and will watch it over any other sport. However, Versus is a terrible broadcast network for hockey. It only shows two games a week if you are lucky (Monday and Tuesday) with a heavy East Coast Bias (Detroit, Chicago, Boston, New York) and their commentators are awful (Pierre Macquire can burn, http://www.hockeyfights.com/forums/f23/ ... me-135224/)

As for ESPN, their analysts are the better of the two, but the NHL to ESPN was like Rodney Dangerfield to the Comedy World (No respect...3 minutes with Barry Melrose or Matt Banarby is hardly enough).

The best bet for hockey viewing is through the regional networks like CSN/TSN since atleast they show all regional games and have deals to share the viewing rights of other games. (I love the Sharks, but I do enjoy getting to see the Flyers, Capitals, or Blackhawks games when the Sharks are not on tv).

In a perfect world, all sports fans could have mlbtv, nhl gamecenter, nbatv, and whatever the NFL has(They have more than one I think) so everyone could listen to the regional broadcasts of their favorites teams rather than commentators with no allegiance and worthless opinions.

[Yankees]

Right - everything you just said about Versus was the point I was trying to make about the RSL/Monterrey game being on Fox Soccer. If you're on one of those networks, you have no shot. I know ESPN had interest in the RSL/Monterrey game, but there was no shot to pull it off under the time constraints of when they had to play.

[Pirates]

FWIW: last year's stanley cup finals game 6 earned a 5.8 rating between the Blackhawks and Flyers, the highest in 36 years for a stanley cup final game. Also up from a 4.1\7 in 2009 which featured Sidney Crosby. Note: The game was shown on NBC between 8:15pm and 11:15pm

MLS soccer received a 0.5 rating, between the Colorado Rapids, and FC Dallas. The Game was Shown on ESPN and it was the lowest MLS finals rating since 1998. The Previous year drew a 0.9 which featured David Beckham. In 2008 when the game was shown on ABC, the event drew a 0.7 rating.

Also Note that in 2010 was a Winter Olympic year, as well as a World Cup Year.

[Yankees]

ESPN has made a multi-million dollar commitment to the MLS, and not the NHL - and it's not like they don't have the money to support NHL coverage if they wanted it.

Hockey is an established league that's been around for 80 something years. The MLS is in it's 16th year, and was an absolute (admitted) trainwreck until 2001. Since 2001, it's easy to argue the MLS' growth over the NHL's fall, and, recently, it's the only growth league in the US.

[Giants]

With all respect (and no one love minor league sports in this league more than I do), the NHL deal with Comcast/Versus was $2 billion, somehow I don't think the deal with ESPN was in that ballpark. ESPN let hockey go to expand NBA coverage because there weren't enough hours to be the flagship network for two major sports, they picked MLS as an alternative to the WNBA to fill time in the summer. MLS is definitely growing, and it's definitely the most ascendant league in the country (sure it's main competition for that title is the newly reformed Arena League and the WNBA but still), but the best hockey players in the world come to play in the NHL and the best American soccer players leave to play in Europe. Until that trend changes those two leagues aren't in the same conversation.

[Royals]

You keep talking about growth for MLS, it's easy to grow when you're young, MLB, the NFL, the NBA and NHL are established leagues with huge fanbases, (well, maybe not the NHL anymore), it's easy to grow in popularity when you're a squirty little league like MLS (or the WNBA, which you championed before that).

As Jake said above, the best American players leave to play in Europe. Which is where the best soccer is played. They may cut their teeth in the JV MLS, but the best move on. MLS will never surpass the American sports, in part because it's not American. We're an ethnocentric, nationalistic people, and soccer is too worldly for a population of citizens who will largely never leave he boundaries of their own country, especially with 'real' American sports around like football, baseball and basketball.

[Yankees]

These are fantastically easy observations to make when you don't do any research. First of all, the league is a single-entity structure, meaning that the league signs players, and dictates the salary cap. The salary cap for the MLS right now is $2.9 million per team. This would make it pretty restrictive to sign a lot of those top players. However, it doesn't make it hard for the league to continue to grow. Having the league pay the player contracts makes it far easier for teams to actually make money - which is something none of the other leagues are currently doing.

Given the salaries for the US teams, it's pretty remarkable the caliber of talent the league currently draws. Now, as the league continues to grow, the salary cap will grow as well - which will continue to make it easier for US teams to continue to attract top talent.

Also, the relationship between theh owners, the players, and the league right now is fantastic - this structure will continue to assure CBA harmony - something other sports are struggling with. With the MLS attracting over 17k fans per game (and growing), tons of top of the line sponsors, multi-million dollar TV contracts, having the richest ownership group of all US pro sports leagues, and growing world exposure (look at the caliber of teams coming to the US to play this summer), comparing it to the WNBA or other "squirty" little leagues is just ignorant.

Back in the 70's the NASL (US league) had the most talent in the entire world - but they grew too fast to support the day-to-day business. In the 80's the EPL had quality similar to what the MLS does now. The EPL reigned inward, sold many of their top players to gain capital, continued to put more money into their youth systems, and then grew out to become the strongest league in the world today - which is exactly what MLS is doing right now.

You can shit talk the MLS as much as you want. All it takes is a computer and hands to compare the MLS to the WNBA - but it clearly does not take a brain. The MLS is MUCH closer to overtaking the NHL than the WNBA is to overtaking the MLS.

[Giants]

Sure. The WNBA only survives because it's good PR for the NBA. And I know all about the league entity structure, remember when your league stole Landon Donovan from the Earthquakes because its owner (and the league) wanted to focus marketing efforts on the Galaxy? Anschultz wanted to fold that team for years only the Quakes kept winning so finally he gave up and moved the team to Houston. It also cracks me up that you pulled out the league salary cap figure at $2.9 million, the average NHL salary is $2.4 million dollars. The average salary in the EPL is 1.46 million pounds ($2,437,324) and that figure is actually skewed low because the bottom dwellers deal with promotion and relegation so some teams come in with lower tier budgets.

MLS has also shown that it has the money to pay top stars when it wants to (e.g. Beckham and Henry), the bigger issue is that by and large those guys don't want to come here (or stay as in the case of pretty much every major contributor on the National team), and as you rightly pointed out the league couldn't sustain itself at that size right now. Salary cap figures aren't arbitrary, they are tied to league revenues. There isn't labor strife because the league isn't paying world class salaries and by and large it doesn't have world class players, everyone is just happy to be making a living at soccer (and there's nothing wrong with that). Could MLS someday grow and catch the NHL? Sure, as our country's population and background shift away from the northeast they are more likely to connect with soccer than hockey and all of that fun stuff, but the NHL has a really massive head start and doesn't have the same kind of international competition soccer does. The MLS is miles ahead of the WNBA and moving on, but if it's salary cap is basically within 20% of the the average player salary in the NHL it's absurd to pretend that the league's are close at this point. We should revisit this in 15 years when A-Rod and Pujols are gone and JB's finally off the mountain top

[Yankees]

MLS salary cap is softer than even the NBA's salary cap. The league pays a salary up to a certain point. For example, Donovan's base salary is $500k, but he makes $2.2 mill per year. The Galaxy pick up the $'s above the cap. The goal right now isn't to be the best league in the world, it's continuing to grow a sustainable business. The teams that have entered the league since Garber have been the Dynamo, the Whitecaps, RSL, Portland, Seattle, TFC, and Philly. You can't call any of those teams anything but unqualified successes from a business perspective.

9 MLS games this past weekend averaged just shy of 20k in attendance - beating both the NHL & NBA. Just saying, the gap is closer than I think a lot of people give credit for...

[Pirates]

Considering that all but 2 NHL and NBA venues hold under 20k, you would hope they would beat their attendance, most of the MLS stadiums are in the 25-26k range, no? Even though its only 1 game a year, getting 70k people into a stadium for an outdoor hockey game is impressive.

[Yankees]

Actually, the # is closer to 20k for SSS (soccer specific stadiums). The Sounders draw 36k per game at Qwest (sell-out - they don't open the rest of their seats). Otherwise the # is right around 20k for all the other SSS.

Also, the Galaxy took on Barca in front of 93k a few years ago, so let's not go sucking each other's dicks on the outdoor hockey game.

[Pirates]

That last post just proved everyone else's point. 93k to see Barcelona, to see Lionel Messi arguably the best player in the world. It wasn't 93k to see 2 MLS teams play each other. Fans flock to see the best teams in the world, not mediocre talent. You know its bad when Tim Howard won't even stay.

[Yankees]

That last post just proved everyone else's point. 93k to see Barcelona, to see Lionel Messi arguably the best player in the world. It wasn't 93k to see 2 MLS teams play each other. Fans flock to see the best teams in the world, not mediocre talent. You know its bad when Tim Howard won't even stay.

I'm confused. Tim Howard gets paid like $4 mill a year. No one can pay him that in the MLS. He is quote ALL THE TIME saying that he will end his career playing in the MLS.

The Sounders could draw 50k per game (they have the demand), they just want to make sure they fill the upper bowl before they open it (~65k overall).

Fortunately, the MLS doesn't have to create gimmick matches to sell tickets.

[Pirates]

"Fortunately, the MLS doesn't have to create gimmick matches to sell tickets."

"Also, the Galaxy took on Barca in front of 93k a few years ago"

A meaningless game sounds like a gimmick match to me.

[BlueJays]

"Fortunately, the MLS doesn't have to create gimmick matches to sell tickets."

"Also, the Galaxy took on Barca in front of 93k a few years ago"

A meaningless game sounds like a gimmick match to me.

David Beckham being paid a ridiculous sum of money, anybody?

[Yankees]

How is playing FC Barcelona a meaningless match?

If your team has a shot to play against the best teams in the world, and the best teams in the world are willing to come to the United States to play, I'd imagine you do it. I've long thought playing against top competition was a way of making your team better - which is exactly why those teams come here. They want to play the US teams before their seasons start so they can get the workout against teams in top form. Teams around the world do this all the time (in fact, the New York Red Bulls have been invited to participate in the prestigious Emirates Cup this summer against top teams from all over the world - including Arsenal).

The NHL created a regular season gimmick game to help sagging TV ratings and crowd numbers. It's not like the NHL players are going to get better because they played outside.

[Giants]

You really gonna make me do this again with the numbers? The most recent number I can find for average MLS ticket price is $27.47 (most references to this number are from 2007, though I found one from 2010 I'm sure you have more accurate information and I would expect it's a little higher now, so let's say it's around $30). The average NHL ticket price was $51.41, so if we assume that MLS ticket prices have risen to $30 since 2007 that means it costs 71% more per person to go to an NHL game than an MLS match (as an aside, the NBA average price dropped to $48.08 this year, it's hard to imagine that hockey can charge more for tickets than basketball). This price disparity means that the economic choice of going to a hockey game vs. a soccer match aren't comparable, so comparing raw attendance numbers isn't terribly relevant. I also don't know the luxury suite comparison between NHL arenas and Soccer Specific MLS Stadiums, but I can't imagine MLS is in the ballpark in number or price (again you would know better than me and if my assumption is wrong let me know).

In a way the ticket price disparity is also a microcosm for the television stuff. ESPN/ABC decided they would rather have MLS for $50 million or whatever than the NHL for $2 billion. To argue that they made that choice primarily because the MLS is on par with the NHL is kind of absurd. I like how you skated by my conflict of interest complaint around AEG and the Earthquakes/Dynamo (which they still own 50% of), long term that kind of stuff isn't healthy but you can get away with it while you're in your early stage as the league is.

Honestly I'm not trying to rag on you, I dug into it this deeply because I'm trying to exercise my business analysis muscles for starting school in the fall (and I'm still a little sore about the Donovan thing even if I understand that he probably wouldn't be in the MLS anymore if he hadn't gone to LA). The MLS probably owns the second tier (unless NASCAR has fallen back to that level and I'm too lazy to look that up), and it's certainly on the rise, but potential results don't equal actual results (you hear that Panther fans? I'm calling that shot on Cam Newton right now, he's Vince Young deux), so let's enjoy the rise instead of trying to rush things. Go Quakes

[Astros]

Saying Cam Newton is Vince Young 2 implies that Cam Newton could actually get his team to the playoffs. At least Vince Young won games, even if they were ugly and sloppy. Cam Newton is JaMarcus Russell 2