2008 Draft Date

Dodgers · Post by **Dodgers** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:07 pm

Rockies wrote:What if the next Dice-K doesn't sign until 12/15? Any team that already drafted would essentially miss out on him?

That's always been an issue, but it's still an issue with a January draft date.

If I remember correctly, that exact thing happened in the 2006 draft, not sure if I have the names/remembrance exactly right, but I believe Saito signed late into the IBC draft, allowing someone (presumably Pat B) who was either on the clock or up shortly to steal him with a late round pick.

Angels · Post by **Angels** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:32 pm

Dodgers wrote:
Rockies wrote:What if the next Dice-K doesn't sign until 12/15? Any team that already drafted would essentially miss out on him?
That's always been an issue, but it's still an issue with a January draft date.

If I remember correctly, that exact thing happened in the 2006 draft, not sure if I have the names/remembrance exactly right, but I believe Saito signed late into the IBC draft, allowing someone (presumably Pat B) who was either on the clock or up shortly to steal him with a late round pick.

So how about allowing the draft of anyone? And then if the player doesn't sign by X-date he goes into the next year's draft? I'm sure this has been brought up before, just wondering the argument against it, if any.

DBacks · Post by **DBacks** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:44 pm

I think, theoretically, that if someone wants to use their pick on a guy who hasn't signed yet, they're allowed to do so. I think people have drafted 07 or 06 guys who still hadn't signed with their MLB clubs in hopes that they would before they had to release them. So, if it's a well known foreign player, a GM could go ahead and draft them and just hope that they sign.

I could be wrong about all of this though. If I am, I don't see why it's not doable.

Dodgers · Post by **Dodgers** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:09 pm

Yeah, you can draft whoever you want.

Nobody needs a reminder of Bren getting burned by Maels Fucking Rodriguez, pretty much the best example of drafting an unsigned player.

Cardinals · Post by **Cardinals** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:13 pm

Yeah, we had (sorry John) Colorado draft Matt Harvey last year. If he somehow did sign by some act of God or something then he would have been eligible to stay and be on John's team. But, he's at Chapel Hill and thus isn't eligible. Feel free to draft him for no reason though in 2008 somebody. Preferably somebody drafting in front of me.

Angels · Post by **Angels** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:48 pm

OK then, what is the argument about? Dec. 1 works for me.

Giants · Post by **Giants** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:49 pm

From the Rules:

A player will be returned to the draft pool for the next season under the following conditions. If the player was drafted by an MLB team and does not sign a new contract before the next MLB draft (the 2007 MLB draft in the example above). If the player is a Cuban defector or is from another professional league such as Japan, Korea or Mexico and does not sign a contract with an MLB team by opening day (Opening Day of the 2007 season in the example above). If the does not fall under one of these two categories, he must have signed a contract with an MLB team prior to January first of that year (prior to January 1st of 2007 in the example above).

So guys like Kenshin Kawakami are draftable and would be eligible if they sign by Opening Day. Any 16 year old Dominican types who are going to be drafted have been signed already, so that isn't an issue. But the draft pool has always been open, you can pick Yu Darvish if you think he's going to get posted.

Cubs · Post by **Cubs** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:30 am

Dodgers wrote:
Rockies wrote:What if the next Dice-K doesn't sign until 12/15? Any team that already drafted would essentially miss out on him?
That's always been an issue, but it's still an issue with a January draft date.

If I remember correctly, that exact thing happened in the 2006 draft, not sure if I have the names/remembrance exactly right, but I believe Saito signed late into the IBC draft, allowing someone (presumably Pat B) who was either on the clock or up shortly to steal him with a late round pick.

I signed Saito as a free agent in March after he had signed with the Dodgers. Tadahito Iguchi signed with the White Sox while I was on the clock in the 2nd or 3rd round of the 2004 draft. That fortuitous piece of luck was a big part of this year's championship as it led to the acquisition of Polanco who hit at a 342/392/492 clip in the SIM this year.

BlueJays · Post by **BlueJays** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:13 pm

I thought we had determined that if a player hasn't signed by Jan 1st of the new year - and they were not drafted.. they had to be drafted in the next years draft.

For example:

Juan Duran.. signed as a FA by the Reds out of the DR.. he qualifies for the 08 draft.

And say Yorman Rodriguez signed after draft time but like in Feb. of 09.. he couldn't be drafted. and he was subject to draft under the next draft.

I dont know if that makes sense.. sorry.. I've had several beers.. but I thought we've hashed this out before on elgibility.. because I believe it was Saito I questioned in previous discussion... Unless I'm just going out of my mind.

Cardinals · Post by **Cardinals** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:12 pm

Given that Bren has been the only one adamantly opposed to the December 1st draft date, we'll go ahead and stick with that.

Royals · Post by **Royals** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:31 pm

Pirates wrote:Given that Bren has been the only one adamantly opposed to the December 1st draft date, we'll go ahead and stick with that.

Actually, I was (and remain) adamantly opposed to the ExCo making decisions and announcing them without bothering to ask for league input. I think the timing is a bad idea for the league in general, for me in particular, it makes no difference.
Perhaps you should, I dunno, set up a poll asking people what they prefer instead of making a decision, announcing the decision and then post-rationalizing the decision off the opinions of a few members. Ask everyone to vote. The only reason not to do so is if you're afraid you'll find that the league disagrees with you or if you believe your know better than everyone else, that your authority is absolute and the opinion of the members has no meaning.

Re: the Dice-k issue... That is another point that has been an issue and another valid argument for doing it later. yes, you can still gamble on the player, but why should we now have to gamble where before there was a reasonable amount of certainty not only of who was coming over, but where they are going?

Mets · Post by **Mets** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:28 pm

haha...Bren called one of my points valid. I have to say I'd rather have the Jan. 1, but I'm not opposed to enough to raise a stink. Just means I have to research while cooking my Turkey over Thanksgiving instead of doing it while my wife is out buying me Xmas gifts in December, like usual.

Mets · Post by **Mets** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:53 am

I'm pretty sure it's too late now, but what I've instituted in BCMBL with regards to foreign players signing mid-draft is:

---Only players with a valid major league contract are eligible to be drafted. Any player who signs a contract mid-round is not eligible to drafted until the beginning of the next round...ie: Tazawa signs while we are up to IBC pick 9. he wouldn't be eligible to be drafted until pick #31...Let's not forget the purpose of drafts. It's to help underperforming teams become better. Why should a top team get a steal because of chance?----

Anyway, I'm sure it's too late, but I am surprised that this hasn't been given more thought.

Yankees · Post by **Yankees** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:06 am

I think that's an excellent rule that we should implement immediately.

Cardinals · Post by **Cardinals** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:07 pm

Rockies wrote:I'm pretty sure it's too late now, but what I've instituted in BCMBL with regards to foreign players signing mid-draft is:

---Only players with a valid major league contract are eligible to be drafted. Any player who signs a contract mid-round is not eligible to drafted until the beginning of the next round...ie: Tazawa signs while we are up to IBC pick 9. he wouldn't be eligible to be drafted until pick #31...Let's not forget the purpose of drafts. It's to help underperforming teams become better. Why should a top team get a steal because of chance?----

Anyway, I'm sure it's too late, but I am surprised that this hasn't been given more thought.

Disagree with this. It's not as if we don't know Tazawa is coming over. He clearly is. These other Japanese players that are coming over- these RP's etc.- are extremely minor as well. A little research will show who is coming over and who isn't. It's clear that Tazawa is, and Darvish isn't.

Also, let's say I wanted to "roll the dice" on Tazawa at 10, but he didn't sign till say, pick 17 of our draft. By this rule, he wouldn't be eligible to be drafted by me at 10, and I'd have to wait till pick 31 to draft him. I don't have a second round pick. In fact, I believe JB has 3 of the first 4 second round picks or something like that. So this does not help the underperforming team, it definitely helps the teams that dealt for a second round pick- and penalizes the teams that want to roll the dice on the Japanese player in the first round. Especially in this years case.

Yankees · Post by **Yankees** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:11 pm

Except for the fact that everyone has knowingly (at least I hope) dealth their picks. If a team 'rolls the dice' and then gets left holding the bag, they are not only not better next year, but they have also shot themselves in the foot by not drafting a prospect.

Cardinals · Post by **Cardinals** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:17 pm

Royals wrote:Except for the fact that everyone has knowingly (at least I hope) dealth their picks. If a team 'rolls the dice' and then gets left holding the bag, they are not only not better next year, but they have also shot themselves in the foot by not drafting a prospect.

Except for the fact that this rule was not in place when the team dealt the picks. So no, if you implement this immediately as you suggested, it does nothing to help the bottom teams of the league.

Yankees · Post by **Yankees** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:44 pm

I'm going to assume that the worst of the teams dealt their picks for good prospects or pro players - or at least ones that they felt helped their teams. So I'm not sure I see the validity of your argument. If one of the better teams made a deal for a pick at the top of the 2nd round, then I'd like to assume that they made a deal for that pick.

I'm pretty sure that a team wasn't going to hold onto a 2nd round pick in the hopes that Tazawa signs in the middle of the first round so they got their first round pick AND Tazawa. And I'm pretty sure that someone is going to take him in the top 10 anyway, and traded to get into that position, or held to stay in that position. So this really only applies to late signing international picks, mediocre Japanese starters, or Japanese relief pitchers. It's a good precedent to set, and not really going to send this draft into a tailspin. It allows people to make more informed decisions, more fair decisions if someone signs surprisingly in the middle of a round, and sets a good precedent.

If this is throwing someone off, then they were ill-prepared to begin with. It allows the bad teams to be 100% sure that if they take a Japanese player he's going to be on their roster - and if he's not signing, they can go ahead and draft a prospect and not fear that they're missing the boat. AND still allows someone to take a shot on Tazawa either way.

Let's use Tazawa as an example:
If someone wants to take a shot at him BEFORE a decision is made, they can. If he has not been taken by pick 20, but then signs, he immediately is ineligible until the 2nd round. Doesn't this HELP the worse teams? They get another shot at him in the 2nd round, and didn't waste a pick in the first in the hopes that he would be there.

If someone makes a dumb deal to deal away an early 2nd round pick, as well, that's their decision. As I said, I don't think ANYONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND would hold onto a 2nd round pick in the hopes that Tazawa would sign in the middle of the first round - and I exponentially don't think that ANYONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND would hold onto a 3rd round pick in the hopes that he signs in the 2nd round.

Tigers · Post by **Tigers** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:01 pm

Once again changing a key draft rule the day the draft is suppose to start is a bad idea, IMO.

If everyone thinks it is a great idea, then fine, then have a league vote and implement it for next season's draft.

Rangers · Post by **Rangers** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:03 pm

I'm going to assume that the worst of the teams dealt their picks for good prospects or pro players - or at least ones that they felt helped their teams. So I'm not sure I see the validity of your argument. If one of the better teams made a deal for a pick at the top of the 2nd round, then I'd like to assume that they made a deal for that pick.

I'm pretty sure that a team wasn't going to hold onto a 2nd round pick in the hopes that Tazawa signs in the middle of the first round so they got their first round pick AND Tazawa. And I'm pretty sure that someone is going to take him in the top 10 anyway, and traded to get into that position, or held to stay in that position. So this really only applies to late signing international picks, mediocre Japanese starters, or Japanese relief pitchers. It's a good precedent to set, and not really going to send this draft into a tailspin. It allows people to make more informed decisions, more fair decisions if someone signs surprisingly in the middle of a round, and sets a good precedent.

If this is throwing someone off, then they were ill-prepared to begin with. It allows the bad teams to be 100% sure that if they take a Japanese player he's going to be on their roster - and if he's not signing, they can go ahead and draft a prospect and not fear that they're missing the boat. AND still allows someone to take a shot on Tazawa either way.

Come on, man. The argument was that we should change it because, in a vacuum, it helps the bad teams, and you didn't think about the fact that the bad teams might have dealt their picks (to JB of all people) when you said that it should be instituted immediately. It clearly wouldn't help the bad teams this season. Why argue that point?

Tigers · Post by **Tigers** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:08 pm

In addition, as it directly applies to this season's draft, the fact of the matter is JB does have the first pick of the 2nd round (nothing personal against JB he does a great job of trading for picks), thus if this rule were implemented and Tazawa ends up signing with the Red Sox during the next 2-3 weeks while the first round is going on, a "weak" team would not benefit from this rule, so it would be a last minute change of a rule that would appear to favor one of the stronger teams in the league. So while in the longer run, the rule appears to be a good thing, right now as a last minute change it wouldn't appear to help the weaker teams in the league, which would be the only justifiable reason to change the rule at the 11th hour, IMO.

Yankees · Post by **Yankees** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:14 pm

Tazawa is a horrible example - because someone is going to take a shot on him, so a player of his caliber would never really apply in this rule.

A better example is if a Saito-type signs in the middle of the 2nd round. Just by dumb luck that person can now draft him and have a good relief pitcher for next year. By pushing that type of player to the 3rd round, it's in the interest of fairness. If someone had the foresight to take him BEFORE HE SIGNED - more power to them.

Tazawa would really only come into play if he signed after 5 picks were used - and he hadn't been taken. My counter than would no regulation in Round 1, but all players signed after the end of the first round are subject to the rule. All obvious selections would get taken in the first round, and any pleasant surprises were subject to a fair process.

This way only insane people would hold onto their non-first round picks in the hopes that a player fell to them, and the value of all top flight players and picks remains intact.

WhiteSox · Post by **WhiteSox** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:15 pm

Ropers thanks for reminding me I had the first pick in the second round. I think we need to implement this new rule asap.

Dodgers · Post by **Dodgers** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:41 pm

I think this rule would make more sense if the league didn't have pick trading, because then those players WOULD end up with the worst teams, though most would end up with the WORST team (potentially picks 31, 61, 91, 121).

However, I don't think instituting this rule for this year's draft is going to help anyone.

Yankees · Post by **Yankees** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:10 pm

I'm not necessarily looking out for the weakest teams - I'm saying in the interest of fairness to everyone. Each year I feel screwed at least once when someone signs right in front of Pat or Bren and then they immediately sign them based on dumb luck. The more we can get ahead of dumb luck, the better off we all are...