Injury Reminder

[Royals]

I'm not entirely sure whether you're referencing MLB or IBC throughout your post, but since you clearly start out talking about IBC and don't specifically mention MLB I'm going to go with IBC for the whole comment.

"If I DL a guy after the Thursday DB. I'm gonna activate him 15 days later, which will be a Friday. "
WHY the hell are you deactivating a player after the Thursday database? Ah. i know why. Because you GUESSED that that is how the rule works, instead of either a) looking at the rules of b) asking someone on the ExCo. first thing I did when I came back was check with JP to see what, if anything, had changed and got clarifications on anything i was unsure of.

"By rule, it doesn't matter when you deactivate a player, as long as he misses 15 days."
By rule? What rule? Actually, it kind of does. I sure wouldn't like it if JB held off on DLing a guy like Pujols until after a series against me.

"With 2 DB's per week, the Saturday deadline becomes inconsequential. 15 days is 15 days. My thought was "if we had weekly DB's, and Saturday at midnight was the standard based off the Sunday weekly DB process...adding a second DB would then allow Thursday at midnight to be a 2nd potential DL benchmark"
See, here's the problem. you seem t have assumed how a rule works instead of actually asking.


"Call me too smart, but when I originally posted it, it made perfect sense."
Keep dreaming.

There are still GM's who aren't clear on how most of the DL rules work as it is, and they're pretty freakin simple.

[Yankees]

These 87 posts today brought to you by the guy who didn't have time to play me h2h this week...

[Cardinals]

The DL rules haven't changed, we had a discussion on them, but nothing has come from it yet. The league also had a discussion as well, a thread started by Gabe. If you would like to revisit and amend the rules, we can continue discussing it further. As of now, the system works fluidly and doesn't have any huge issues. I would like to think mid-week activations would be OK so long as the player has served his mandatory 2 week DL time, but that is probably the only tweak I would think would be necessary. If somebody has a daily DL idea that would seemingly work I am all for it.

[Mets]

There are still GM's who aren't clear on how most of the DL rules work as it is, and they're pretty freakin simple.

I'm not going to bother responding to anything you posted directly.

I do want to leave you with a quote from "The Effective Executive" by Peter Drucker:

"Good executives focus on opportunities rather than problems. Problems have to be taken care of, of course; they must not be swept under the rug. But problem solving, however necessary, does not produce results. It prevents damage. Exploiting opportunities produce results.

Above All, effective executives treat change as an opportunitiy rather than a threat. They systematically look at changes, inside and ouside of the corporation, and ask, "How can we exploit this change as an opportunity for our enterprise?"

Now I quote this book with the intent of pointing out different approaches toward conflicting thought processes.

I've found that when my employees come to me with either a misunderstanding or issue of a standing rule, I'm able to garner both more respect and productivity by asking myself:
-How did they come to the conclusion that they came to?
-What can I, as their peer, do to help enlighten them?
-Do I, as their superior, need to re-evaluate the way information is relayed throughout my department?


Morale of the story:

1. If I had taken everything that my employee said, line by line, and went out of my way to disprove their thoughts, I would be an ineffective manager, and potentially lose the respect of that employee, thus disrupting department chemistry.

2. Given the above quote from the Red Sox GM, there is an assumption that there are still GM's that are unclear of the DL rules. Normally, the league's management, as a whole, should evaluate how to more effectively communicate those rules, or openly look into options to make them more effective, albiet the possibility of changing them.

I understand that the Red Sox GM is no longer part of the leagues management, but these are rules for life, bothers.

[Mets]

PS....

A more effective argumentation style would be to point out how the current system is more advantageous than the one that I've decided that I'm going to use.

Simply stating the rules exist and are documented fails to effectively evoke consumer buy-in.

[Tigers]

PS....

A more effective argumentation style would be to point out how the current system is more advantageous than the one that I've decided that I'm going to use.

Simply stating the rules exist and are documented fails to effectively evoke consumer buy-in.

I don't think anyone is trying to get you to buy into the rule, mearly pointing out you can't just ignore the rule as it stands and change how you are going to follow the rule without going through the proper channels.

You may have a good idea in altering/tweaking the rule and you may not, but if everyone who "thought they had a good idea" decided to randomly follow them without the approval of the Ex-Co there would be random chaos in the league. As an apparent manager, I'd think you'd be able to realize the common sense in this.

If you think you have a good idea, then by all means, take it to the Ex-Co and see if everyone agrees.

However, I'd have to say, your current course of action appears to be more like the random employee who decides it is a good idea to implement "casual Fridays" at the formal lawyer office without telling / asking anyone. You show up on Friday in jeans and a Tommy Bahama shirt to the Friday morning office meeting where everyone else is in suits and ties. Your boss looks at you like you are out of you mind, when you inform him, you decided you were going to implement "Casual Fridays", because it was working so well at other lawyer firms.

Hey, it might be a good idea, however just changing the way you follow the rule because you think you have a good idea, isn't the right way to go about it.

[Dodgers]

John, your system might work great for you, but it's not realistic to allow the whole league to use for the whole season. We had this discussion in ExCo. ExCo decided that we didn't want to force people to have to make DL moves midweek, especially near the end of the week. Because of this our only option would have been to allow teams to choose whether they were going to use twice weekly DL or once weekly DL and make them stick with it all year, which logistically/tracking wise would have proved to be an absolute nightmare.

What you appear to be suggesting is letting people choose when they want to DL players, either Thursday or Sunday, depending on when they want to. That is prime for abuse. If I have a Thursday-Saturday series with you and my guy went on the DL Tuesday, you're saying I can basically choose whether or not to play him versus you?

With regards to the daily DL, we respect the fact that most everyone in the IBC has a real life and can't be available every day for six straight months to send in a lineup. We've used the weekly DL with pretty good success and until someone comes up with a foolproof plan that works better for all the league, we're going to stick with it.

[Yankees]

I'm in full agreement with this decision - but what's the ruling on the MILB dl?

[BlueJays]

Uhg.. Why is that the DL is always always always always always an issue in the IBC?

I'm not proposing any changes mid season. But it seems to me this is our most outstanding issue that none of can agree on/there's confusion on/problems enforcing/the list goes on and on and on/etc.

I'd urge the ExCo to come up with a good, permanent, solution for the upcoming 09 season.

I echo the sentiments that we should use a system that mirrors MLB. Throw the "retroactive" shit out the window. If a guy sits only for 9 days because he was retroactively DL'd, so be it. Let the IBC guy sit for 9 days. If he sits for 15, let him sit for 15. I dont know. But as other's have noted, its being done in several other known leagues, and being done well. There's no arguments about guys who should be DL'd, no penalities having to be enforced because guys are actually DL'd. It seems it would save a SHIT TON of headache for everyone.

Isn't that enough to warrent it?

I don't know if the above is the solution. I'm not saying it is. What I'm trying to say is arguing every other month about DL rules, having to police other's rosters on top of your OWN, and the continual issue of the DL in this league is bullshit. Something needs to be done to just make this shit go away, once and for all!

[Cardinals]

Uhg.. Why is that the DL is always always always always always an issue in the IBC?

I'm not proposing any changes mid season. But it seems to me this is our most outstanding issue that none of can agree on/there's confusion on/problems enforcing/the list goes on and on and on/etc.

I'd urge the ExCo to come up with a good, permanent, solution for the upcoming 09 season.

I echo the sentiments that we should use a system that mirrors MLB. Throw the "retroactive" shit out the window. If a guy sits only for 9 days because he was retroactively DL'd, so be it. Let the IBC guy sit for 9 days. If he sits for 15, let him sit for 15. I dont know. But as other's have noted, its being done in several other known leagues, and being done well. There's no arguments about guys who should be DL'd, no penalities having to be enforced because guys are actually DL'd. It seems it would save a SHIT TON of headache for everyone.

If a player is retroactively placed on the DL, that means he spent a total of 15 days at minimum not playing due to injury anyway. The player was hurt for at least 15 days in reality, so how does that not mirror in the IBC? Why should you get to use a guy for an extra 6 days when the MLB team doesn't get that benefit, if you are wanting to mirror the MLB so much?

[Tigers]

But as other's have noted, its being done in several other known leagues, and being done well. There's no arguments about guys who should be DL'd, no penalities having to be enforced because guys are actually DL'd. It seems it would save a SHIT TON of headache for everyone.

I think there are decent arguement's for both types of DL systems, but let me get this right, are you saying that you guys never have DL violations in the other leagues? If you don't, is this because in those leagues the guy SIMing has to go to the DL list every day before SIMing and deactivate players? Or are you still relying on individual GM's to de-activate their own players? If individual GM's are still responsible for deactivating their own players, then I'd have a hard time believing that a daily DL system would solve any DL violations. I'd actually think it would cause more as people traveling wouldn't be able to deactivate a guy if he happened to get injured while you were gone or didn't have access to the internet.

Anyways, its not the "complexity" of the DL system that is the current problem, its that GM's just don't keep track or they miss things if they are gone. It will happen in any system, unless you make the guy SIMing the games go through every day and deactivate any DL'd players. Not sure the guy SIMing games wants that added responsibility every day.

We had a GM last season (was it Ken? or maybe it was John) who was keeping track of new MLB DL'd players and making a list every week that made it easier for GM's to follow and update. That apparently went by the wayside, I'm assuming the GM that was doing it decided it wasn't worth his effort.

Anyways, there are pros and cons to every idea we've heard so far. I wish there was a "perfect" solution but I'm not sure there is one, or nobody has come up with one yet?

[BlueJays]

I believe the DL in those other leagues is tracked Daily by the person doing the DB. They are DL'd as they get DL'd, activated as they're activated. Though John sure could speak better on behalf of his league than I can.

I'm really not trying to make an argument one way or the other for how shit should be done JP, et al.

The only thing I was hoping anyone came away with from my last post was that this is a seemingly endless and ongoing issue in the IBC. Something's gotta give.

As I said, I dont know the solution. Not saying I have it. All I'm saying is the issue coming up over, and over, and over - the vagueness of some of the rules - the interpretation of said rules leaving a lot of gray area - something finite and concrete needs to be figured out. A permanent solution so we dont have to revisit the stupid DL rules month to month.

IMO, its the biggest thorn in the IBC's side, and has been for quite some time. There may not be a solution that solves all the problems, but there has to be something more than this, hasn't there?

[Mets]

My point is that 2 weeks is 2 weeks. Why would it matter when it begins or ends?

If someone opts for the Saturday DL, and uses their guy for 2 extra days, it's not cheating...they just lose the guys for 2 extra days on the back end.

Being inately unable to procrastinate, I DL my guy upon the first opportunity that I have. When Kevin Cameron went down on a Thursday, I DL'd him on a Thursday.

Assuming that a team is willing to go the extra mile to document their DL moves:
http://ibc.poweralleycircuit.com/viewtopic.php?t=1347

I officially partician the EXCO to reconsider their stance based on the following points:

-A team is not at a competitive advantage by DL'ing their players earlier than the rules state that they have to.
-If teams taking initiative to track their DL's in a public forum could both be more active, and lessen the risk for DL violations
-It is unfair to expect all GM's to be able to make up for a weeks worth of MLB transactions at one time
-What's the worst that can happen?

[Giants]

I think the only possible "more than this" is making it someone's job to make the DL moves in the DB, and if someone has the time and wherewithal to do it, terrific. But as long as we're expecting 30 GMs to be responsible there are going to be mistakes whatever the system is.

[Mets]

To answer Nate's question about BCMBL:

This is what I email every day with the boxes and a fresh DB....

INJURIES:

Ryan Doumit - PHI
Jeff Keppinger - BAL
Clay Buccholz - LAA

--------------------------

ACTIVATIONS:

Marlon Byrd - BAL
Al Reyes - CLE
John Lackey - CLE



Does it take an extra 5 minutes to deactivate those guys on a daily basis....Yes....is it worth every second of it....abso-friggin-lutely....

But I've given up on trying to impose that in this league. I'd be perfectly happy with bi-weekly roster acknowledgement and DL adjustments. With transactions being updated 2x a week, this is the perfect opportunity for the league to take a step in that direction.

[Giants]

You had to pick the day both of my guys went down. Now I'm even more depressed.

[Royals]

There are still GM's who aren't clear on how most of the DL rules work as it is, and they're pretty freakin simple.

I'm not going to bother responding to anything you posted directly.

I do want to leave you with a quote from "The Effective Executive" by Peter Drucker:

"Good executives focus on opportunities rather than problems. Problems have to be taken care of, of course; they must not be swept under the rug. But problem solving, however necessary, does not produce results. It prevents damage. Exploiting opportunities produce results.

Above All, effective executives treat change as an opportunitiy rather than a threat. They systematically look at changes, inside and ouside of the corporation, and ask, "How can we exploit this change as an opportunity for our enterprise?"

Now I quote this book with the intent of pointing out different approaches toward conflicting thought processes.

I've found that when my employees come to me with either a misunderstanding or issue of a standing rule, I'm able to garner both more respect and productivity by asking myself:
-How did they come to the conclusion that they came to?
-What can I, as their peer, do to help enlighten them?
-Do I, as their superior, need to re-evaluate the way information is relayed throughout my department?


Morale of the story:

1. If I had taken everything that my employee said, line by line, and went out of my way to disprove their thoughts, I would be an ineffective manager, and potentially lose the respect of that employee, thus disrupting department chemistry.

2. Given the above quote from the Red Sox GM, there is an assumption that there are still GM's that are unclear of the DL rules. Normally, the league's management, as a whole, should evaluate how to more effectively communicate those rules, or openly look into options to make them more effective, albiet the possibility of changing them.

I understand that the Red Sox GM is no longer part of the leagues management, but these are rules for life, bothers.

Apparently your boy isn't much of a writer.
"Exploiting opportunities produce results." - This is not a sentence. Seriously, it's called spell check guys. Your browser has it. Turn it on.
You're right about one thing though. Exploitation DOES produce results.

There's nothing you can say that will change a very simple fact that I and every member of the ExCo and every experienced member of the league is intimately familiar with. There are too many instances of GM's not even keeping up with weekly injuries to make considering twice weekly or even daily injuries feasible. Running two different systems would be insane.

Z, 1+1+1=3 Plus, i figured you'd use that free time to crank out the Top Lineups.

[BlueJays]

There's nothing you can say that will change a very simple fact that I and every member of the ExCo and every experienced member of the league is intimately familiar with. There are too many instances of GM's not even keeping up with weekly injuries to make considering twice weekly or even daily injuries feasible. Running two different systems would be insane.

Z, 1+1+1=3 Plus, i figured you'd use that free time to crank out the Top Lineups.

What? That doesn't make ANY sense. If there are TOO MANY INSTANCES of GM's NOT KEEPING UP, then why on earth wouldn't you want to solve the problem?

Again, I'm not saying a daily DL is the solution, but guess what. With 1 person keeping track of it and doing a daily DL(which, for the most part seems to be maybe DL'ing and activating about 6 extra players a day.. a total of what.. 30ish mouse clicks?), that resolves the problem of: way too many instances of GM's not keeping up with the DL and the rules.

Problem solved.

2 systems is way too burdensome and difficult to keep track of, I agree. But the current system sure has its share of critics, has its share of violations, has its share of problems, etc.

Again, my overall point is something seemingly needs to be done. A happy solution that takes care of this once and for all. Not to be implemented overnight or next week. But going into next season. I'm tired of arguing over DL shit every other month. I'm tired of the DL rules being as vague as they are. There's a ton of gray area that we have to evaluate every year at playoff time too - case in point Adam Dunn, Javier Lopez a few years back, Luis Gonazlez, etc etc.

The DL system and the issues surrounding it in this league are just pathetic at this point. Its not that this is suddenly a new issue cropping up. Its that its gone on, season after season after season.

[Mets]

Apparently your boy isn't much of a writer.
"Exploiting opportunities produces results." - This is not a sentence. Seriously, it's called spell check guys. Your browser has it. Turn it on.
You're right about one thing though. Exploitation DOES produce results.

There's nothing you can say that will change a very simple fact that I and every member of the ExCo and every experienced member of the league is intimately familiar with. There are too many instances of GM's not even keeping up with weekly injuries to make considering twice weekly or even daily injuries feasible. Running two different systems would be insane.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Irony is when you respond to a criticism by doing exactly what you've been criticised of. Absolutely classic.

And just to be crystal clear.

Having two DL dates is not two systems...it's one system, an expansion of the system we currently have.

It's like having two Saturdays every week, only one is Thursday.

[Yankees]

Z, 1+1+1=3 Plus, i figured you'd use that free time to crank out the Top Lineups.

So confused - and, for the record, I spent the extra time on the Pitching Hot Sheet.

[Royals]

What? That doesn't make ANY sense. If there are TOO MANY INSTANCES of GM's NOT KEEPING UP, then why on earth wouldn't you want to solve the problem?

Wow, you guys have really outdone ourselves...
Ok, I'll put this as simply as possible. if GM's cannot keep up with doing DL updates on a weekly basis, then you can bet your balls they aren't going to be able to keep up with TWICE a week, never mind doing it daily. increasing the amount of 'work' or 'checks' isn't going to solve the problem. Adding more work isn't going to solve the problem!

[BlueJays]

What? That doesn't make ANY sense. If there are TOO MANY INSTANCES of GM's NOT KEEPING UP, then why on earth wouldn't you want to solve the problem?

Wow, you guys have really outdone ourselves...
Ok, I'll put this as simply as possible. if GM's cannot keep up with doing DL updates on a weekly basis, then you can bet your balls they aren't going to be able to keep up with TWICE a week, never mind doing it daily. increasing the amount of 'work' or 'checks' isn't going to solve the problem. Adding more work isn't going to solve the problem!

Again.. WHAT? Did ANYTHING I said sink in?

Nevermind, the answer is obviously not. Because I'm not talking about adding more work for everyone, I'm talking about ELIMINATING IT ALLTOGETHER for 29 GMs!!!!

And I really fail to see how going to the rotoworld link for injuries and averaging a handful of mouse clicks is entirely too much work for someone already doing the DB. From experience/observation in other leagues and as pointed out in John's example, there might be an average of activating/deactivating maybe 5 guys a day. SOOOOO labor intensive, I know.. might get a fucking hand cramp.

Someone is already doing the work to import/export MP's/h2h matches/sim unplayed games. I just don't see why activating/deactiving a small handful of players per day is such a burden. But, thats just me.

[Cardinals]

What? That doesn't make ANY sense. If there are TOO MANY INSTANCES of GM's NOT KEEPING UP, then why on earth wouldn't you want to solve the problem?

Someone is already doing the work to import/export MP's/h2h matches/sim unplayed games. I just don't see why activating/deactiving a small handful of players per day is such a burden. But, thats just me.

I don't think it's a hard amount of work for me, but does every GM have the time to send in a new MP for that injured guy? What if you go away for a few days and miss a pair of injuries so your lineup is out of skew? It's not about that part being any work, it's about getting all 30 GMs to be willing to send in an MP daily and I don't think that's realistic.

[BlueJays]

I don't think it's a hard amount of work for me, but does every GM have the time to send in a new MP for that injured guy? What if you go away for a few days and miss a pair of injuries so your lineup is out of skew? It's not about that part being any work, it's about getting all 30 GMs to be willing to send in an MP daily and I don't think that's realistic.

Fair enough, but why can't GM's just send in MP's as they fit? Exactly the same as the current system.. isn't it? I mean, it seems like less of an issue - especially with a daily DB being available for download from this site when boxes come out. If they don't send in a new MP, tough shit. The guy is deactivated. Let the computer fill in the blank, if the GM doesn't. Its their responsibility. Get off yer ass and get a new MP in when you can.

I dont see the harm, we let the sim make all sorts of managing decisions when we dont play h2h. Perhaps you can clarify your concerns, as they seem like trivial obsticals to me.

Perhaps John can shed more light on how his system works, its positives and its flaws.

My main point remains the same throughout this thread:
I don't care if we don't use the above suggestios as a solution. I'm simply throwing it out there as an example of a system that from my experience, has worked successfully. What I really want to see and what I am advocating is for the ExCo to try to figure out SOME kind of permanent resolution, where this issues doesn't crop every other month.

A more defined and clearly outlined process. Less confusion/gray area. We can't get GM's on the same page with the current DL process, seemingly ever. It isn't working. It hasn't worked. Time for change.

Its the definition of insanity - we keep trying the same thing over and over expecting different results - yet the results are always the same. DL Violations, different rule interpretations, and a system that hasn't and isn't working to the extent it was designed.

[Royals]

What? That doesn't make ANY sense. If there are TOO MANY INSTANCES of GM's NOT KEEPING UP, then why on earth wouldn't you want to solve the problem?

Wow, you guys have really outdone ourselves...
Ok, I'll put this as simply as possible. if GM's cannot keep up with doing DL updates on a weekly basis, then you can bet your balls they aren't going to be able to keep up with TWICE a week, never mind doing it daily. increasing the amount of 'work' or 'checks' isn't going to solve the problem. Adding more work isn't going to solve the problem!

Again.. WHAT? Did ANYTHING I said sink in?

Nevermind, the answer is obviously not. Because I'm not talking about adding more work for everyone, I'm talking about ELIMINATING IT ALLTOGETHER for 29 GMs!!!!

Coming from a guy who has had more problems with disappearing from the league for long stretches than any other active Gm, it's not a surprising suggestion. it's also a BAD one. A Gm's ability to keep up with the DL has been an important indicator of their activity level in the past. if you can't keep up with doing the Dl on a weekly basis, you should go find a league that will do all your work for you, except of course for the stuff you want to do.
*sarcasm alert* Why should anyone have to do anything they don't want to do? Just shovel off all the responsibility on one person instead.*sarcasm alert over*
John, all you seem to see is the way you want things to be, you don't want to see the reality, which is that monitoring the DL is an individual RESPONSIBILITY. It's one of the VERY few things everyone has to do to remain in the league on a regular basis. The reality is that requiring more frequent adjustments means more work and more checking when too many GM's would not be up to keeping up with it. Would a Daily DL be great? yes, absolutely. But it's NOT realistic. And after your suggestions about not requiring players to be on the DL for 14 days and about it 'not mattering' when a player goes off or on the DL, anyone who takes you seriously would have to be flat out nuts.