I don't usually visit Reddit...
I don't usually visit Reddit...
But when I do, it's because 31 NFL fanbases are shitting their pants.
- Cardinals
- Posts: 7924
- Joined: Sat May 18, 2002 1:00 am
- Location: Manch Vegas, CT
- Name: John Paul Starkey
Matt Cassel threw 21 TDs that year with 11 INTs and had a better year two years later in KC.Cardinals wrote:So I'll open this can of worms. If the Pats go 4 and 0, doesn't that prove it is the system and not the quarterback that's made them successful all these years? After all they went 11-5 with Matt Cassel
12, 14, 15, 17, 22
It's a legit question, one that really should be asked of every great QB. Ultimately, behind every great QB, you'll find a great coach, and behind every great coach you'll find a great QB. In this particular pair, we actually have some decent stuff to compare the BB/TB combo to. I'm gonna keep the stats simple since I'm writing this on the bus to work and don't have the patience for a complicated statistical analysis.
Where we should start, really, is with Bledsoe. Brady replaced a franchise QB who was in his prime. Nobody would ever argue for Bledsoe being an NFL great, but he was still a pretty damn good QB. The previous season he threw 17td and 13 int with a 59% completion rating in Belichick's system. 2tds and 2int and 60% completion in '01 before being injured. Brady stepped in as a second year player, 6th round pick, and with that little experience at least equalled the level of play of franchise QB Bledsoe with 18td/12int and a 64% completion rate.
Then there's Cassel, 4th year QB, knew the Pats players and playbook, came in and put up an 11-5 season, 21 TD, 11int, 63% completion. Damn good season. How much of that was Cassel and how much was the system as compared to Brady?
First, I think we look at Cassel's season with the Pats. The season before, with most of the same personnel, Brady threw 50td, 8int and completed 69% of his passes en route to a 16-0 season. The next year, even though Cassel knew the team and system from his four years as a Patriot and still had the likes of Moss, Seller and almost all the same weapons from the year before, Cassel didn't come anywhere close to Brady's production. The year after, Brady put up what was for him a below par season with 28td and 13int and 65.7% pass completion rate as he was still hobbled noticeably by his knee. So Cassel represented a pretty clear dropoff from Brady in the surrounding seasons.
Once Cassel left, he had the misfortune of landing in KC, which was largely a nightmare as far as results, except for 2010, when he arguably outperformed his success with the Patriots, so Cassel had the talent to perform, at least briefly, at a very high level, so he wasn't really a product of a system either, at least no more nor less than every other QB in the NFL. Put a poor team around him, he'll look horrendous, put a good team around him, he looks pretty damn good. But he didn't look as good as Brady did, even with a very similar supporting cast. He's just not on Brady's level. Few QB's are.
Then there's the heartless bastard himself, Bill Belichick. Greatest NFL coach of all time. Belichick would cut his mother if it would save money against the cap. Vinatieri, Welker, Vrabel, Wilfork, Law, and on and on... Great players, some arguably the greatest at their position ever (like Vinatieri), that BB moved on from for cap reasons. If BB believed that Brady wasn't something special, that he could have been replaced by someone like Cassel who could provide similar value at substantial savings because he was a product of the system rather than being an exceptional talent, then Brady would have been gone a long time ago and BB wouldn't be shaking his head and laughing derisively at any scribe dumb enough to ask about a potential QB controversy.
Brady has never won without BB, never played without him. If Pats fans get their wish, that will always be true. But one thing to note is that while Brady has never won without BB, Belichick's success without Brady, is actually really limited. Without TB under center, Belichick is a career 52-61 (46%) as a head coach over 7 seasons with a 1-1 record in one playoff season (leaving off the current incomplete season). With Tom Brady, he's 284-165 (63%) with a playoff record of 22-9 (71%) over 14 seasons.
Every QB is a product of the system they're in. Peyton Manning was the product of his system, in his case the team built around offense and neglected (either intentionally or through a shortcoming in capability) the defense, that was Dungy's style. If Dungy had been more defense oriented, Manning's career numbers would certainly look different. Belichick's style is different, he's not an offense oriented coach, he's a winning oriented coach. There are a lot of other differences between Dungy and Belichick obviously and yes, BB is the greatest coach the NFL has ever seen. But behind every great Coach, there is a great QB, and behind every great QB, there is a great Coach.
As for this year, the only real surprise was beating Arizona on the road, and it was a damn near thing, with a blown snap for a kick being the difference in the game. Miami is a terrible team and last night's game was all about special teams and the defense. Brissett was pretty disappointing as a passer. The Bills at home are next and they suck too. Beating three bad teams with a backup isn't exactly a big deal.
Where we should start, really, is with Bledsoe. Brady replaced a franchise QB who was in his prime. Nobody would ever argue for Bledsoe being an NFL great, but he was still a pretty damn good QB. The previous season he threw 17td and 13 int with a 59% completion rating in Belichick's system. 2tds and 2int and 60% completion in '01 before being injured. Brady stepped in as a second year player, 6th round pick, and with that little experience at least equalled the level of play of franchise QB Bledsoe with 18td/12int and a 64% completion rate.
Then there's Cassel, 4th year QB, knew the Pats players and playbook, came in and put up an 11-5 season, 21 TD, 11int, 63% completion. Damn good season. How much of that was Cassel and how much was the system as compared to Brady?
First, I think we look at Cassel's season with the Pats. The season before, with most of the same personnel, Brady threw 50td, 8int and completed 69% of his passes en route to a 16-0 season. The next year, even though Cassel knew the team and system from his four years as a Patriot and still had the likes of Moss, Seller and almost all the same weapons from the year before, Cassel didn't come anywhere close to Brady's production. The year after, Brady put up what was for him a below par season with 28td and 13int and 65.7% pass completion rate as he was still hobbled noticeably by his knee. So Cassel represented a pretty clear dropoff from Brady in the surrounding seasons.
Once Cassel left, he had the misfortune of landing in KC, which was largely a nightmare as far as results, except for 2010, when he arguably outperformed his success with the Patriots, so Cassel had the talent to perform, at least briefly, at a very high level, so he wasn't really a product of a system either, at least no more nor less than every other QB in the NFL. Put a poor team around him, he'll look horrendous, put a good team around him, he looks pretty damn good. But he didn't look as good as Brady did, even with a very similar supporting cast. He's just not on Brady's level. Few QB's are.
Then there's the heartless bastard himself, Bill Belichick. Greatest NFL coach of all time. Belichick would cut his mother if it would save money against the cap. Vinatieri, Welker, Vrabel, Wilfork, Law, and on and on... Great players, some arguably the greatest at their position ever (like Vinatieri), that BB moved on from for cap reasons. If BB believed that Brady wasn't something special, that he could have been replaced by someone like Cassel who could provide similar value at substantial savings because he was a product of the system rather than being an exceptional talent, then Brady would have been gone a long time ago and BB wouldn't be shaking his head and laughing derisively at any scribe dumb enough to ask about a potential QB controversy.
Brady has never won without BB, never played without him. If Pats fans get their wish, that will always be true. But one thing to note is that while Brady has never won without BB, Belichick's success without Brady, is actually really limited. Without TB under center, Belichick is a career 52-61 (46%) as a head coach over 7 seasons with a 1-1 record in one playoff season (leaving off the current incomplete season). With Tom Brady, he's 284-165 (63%) with a playoff record of 22-9 (71%) over 14 seasons.
Every QB is a product of the system they're in. Peyton Manning was the product of his system, in his case the team built around offense and neglected (either intentionally or through a shortcoming in capability) the defense, that was Dungy's style. If Dungy had been more defense oriented, Manning's career numbers would certainly look different. Belichick's style is different, he's not an offense oriented coach, he's a winning oriented coach. There are a lot of other differences between Dungy and Belichick obviously and yes, BB is the greatest coach the NFL has ever seen. But behind every great Coach, there is a great QB, and behind every great QB, there is a great Coach.
As for this year, the only real surprise was beating Arizona on the road, and it was a damn near thing, with a blown snap for a kick being the difference in the game. Miami is a terrible team and last night's game was all about special teams and the defense. Brissett was pretty disappointing as a passer. The Bills at home are next and they suck too. Beating three bad teams with a backup isn't exactly a big deal.
And Brissett didn't look all that hot as a passer. Last night belonged to the D and special teams. And the running game.Pirates wrote:That too. Somebody told me yesterday at work if the Patriots win last night, then it proves Brady is a system QB. Yeah, four quarters of Brissett proves that.RedSox wrote:How valid is a conclusion based on four games? Seems like SSS.
Mostly, it was part of a long "Fuck you!" to Roger Goodell.