Shut down for the Season

Mariners · Post by **Mariners** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:50 am

Yeah, this is getting rediculous. Example, Dallas Braden has said he believes he may not start again do to a groin pull. Now there is no way he would be saying that if the A's were heading to the playoffs, he'd happily be pitching now and into the playoffs.

We should be able to use players in our post season who are not on the DL!

Tigers · Post by **Tigers** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:44 am

Giants wrote:How exactly is it decided when a player is "shut down for the year"? I know in most cases it is black and white, they had surgery, etc. But is it completely arbitrary in other cases? How do we handle someone who is out for 2 weeks in September but never put on the DL? How do we handle someone who could play if their team was in contention but since not they decide to shut down to rest for next year? How do we handle players who are out now but might make it back by end of the year?

I know this has been an issue every year in the league, but it seems like this thread has been taken as the definitive, official list this year and that seems kind of arbitrary.

Agreed. In the past we've always had to address this issue on a case by case basis as it does become arbitrary when a player is shut down early by a team that is out of contention, but could still be playing if his team was in a playoff race.

A perfect example is Adrian Beltre. He chose to shut it down early and have surgery, because.......well because the M's suck, but I can guarantee you he'd still be playing if the M's were in a penant race. He was playing right up until the day they said, heck, might as well have the surgery now instead of in the offseason in order to get an early jump on the recovery.

It does appear as though people are getting a little out of hand here and assuming everyone shut down early is ineligible, unless for some reason the ExCo decided to change the way we've done it in the past and just forgot to tell anyone.

Padres · Post by **Padres** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:01 pm

Mariners wrote:
Giants wrote:I know this has been an issue every year in the league, but it seems like this thread has been taken as the definitive, official list this year and that seems kind of arbitrary.

Agreed. In the past we've always had to address this issue on a case by case basis as it does become arbitrary when a player is shut down early by a team that is out of contention, but could still be playing if his team was in a playoff race.

A perfect example is Adrian Beltre. He chose to shut it down early and have surgery, because.......well because the M's suck, but I can guarantee you he'd still be playing if the M's were in a penant race. He was playing right up until the day they said, heck, might as well have the surgery now instead of in the offseason in order to get an early jump on the recovery.

It does appear as though people are getting a little out of hand here and assuming everyone shut down early is ineligible, unless for some reason the ExCo decided to change the way we've done it in the past and just forgot to tell anyone.

See: http://ibc.poweralleycircuit.com/viewto ... ight=#4483

Giants · Post by **Giants** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:45 pm

To be honest I'm not sure there was a resolution to the problem in that post. Let me point out the dilemma from the perspective of two players on my team who have been shut down and let's have a discussion on how they should be handled because I think there's still an issue.

Mark Ellis has a torn labrum in his shoulder that requires surgery. He's done, no way he's playing through that right now.

Fred Lewis has a bunion issue in his foot that has been bothering him for several months and surgery has a long recovery period. He and the team decided to have the surgery now because the team was out of it to completely ensure that he could be ready for spring training next year.

My opinion is that Ellis doesn't play but Lewis does, because a team in contention would have absolutely kept their starting left fielder in the lineup for the stretch run.

I'm fine with keeping everyone benched for the rest of the season and then making case by case determinations for the playoffs (simply because the fewer teams make the job easier) or some sort of compromise like that (determined by the TRC perhaps? Or maybe Ropers and Jag since they seem the most on top of injuries). I think this thread should serve more as the overall list of everyone who goes out and then some one or some group should be responsible for determining yay or nay on the names on this list rather than making this an arbitrary determiner of the status of all players.

Tigers · Post by **Tigers** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:01 pm

Athletics wrote: I'm fine with keeping everyone benched for the rest of the season and then making case by case determinations for the playoffs (simply because the fewer teams make the job easier) or some sort of compromise like that (determined by the TRC perhaps? Or maybe Ropers and Jag since they seem the most on top of injuries). I think this thread should serve more as the overall list of everyone who goes out and then some one or some group should be responsible for determining yay or nay on the names on this list rather than making this an arbitrary determiner of the status of all players.

That's the point I was making, and maybe it wasn't very easy to understand. The tone in this thread seems to be swaying a bit too much to the "this is the list and that's all there is to it" when it comes to whether or not a player is eligible in the IBC.

When we've always allowed GM's to make the case if they felt a particular player (in your case mentioned) like Fred Lewis, would have still be kept active by an MLB team if they were still in contention rather than them having surgery early in order to have more recovery time in the offseason.

Anyways, I'll leave it at that, as it doesn't really impact me in my current position in the standings, however figured it needed to be clarified so any of the newer GM's didn't get to feeling they had no recourse if their player showed up in this list.

Padres · Post by **Padres** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:02 pm

Athletics wrote:To be honest I'm not sure there was a resolution to the problem in that post. Let me point out the dilemma from the perspective of two players on my team who have been shut down and let's have a discussion on how they should be handled because I think there's still an issue.

I would agree that the referenced thread did not contain a resolution ... it was simply a referral to last year when ultimately the decision concerning who was in and who was out was made by the then Comissioner.

Giants · Post by **Giants** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:11 pm

Sounds good. So any volunteers to be the grand poobah on yay or nay or does the ExCo decide (with the affected GM obviously not getting a vote)?

Padres · Post by **Padres** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:03 pm

Athletics wrote:Sounds good. So any volunteers to be the grand poobah on yay or nay or does the ExCo decide (with the affected GM obviously not getting a vote)?

I would suggest that since the primary members of the TRC are all non-playoff GMs, we could act as the arbiter of this issue ... I believe we could do so in an expedient and consistent fashion.

I also understand that we may have to expalin a decision and that it could be subject to league discussion.

I also understand that I am only one member of the TRC and that Brett P and/or Ken may not agree that the TRC should do this so ....

Dodgers · Post by **Dodgers** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:10 pm

I think it would make more sense for ExCo to do this, seeing as you and Brett are also on that and myself and JP are not headed to the playoffs either. Seems like position-wise ExCo seems like it makes more sense than TRC. Unless we want to appoint a new injury committee dedicated to handling this, injuries during the season, penalties, etc?

Padres · Post by **Padres** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:24 pm

Dodgers wrote:I think it would make more sense for ExCo to do this, seeing as you and Brett are also on that and myself and JP are not headed to the playoffs either. Seems like position-wise ExCo seems like it makes more sense than TRC. Unless we want to appoint a new injury committee dedicated to handling this, injuries during the season, penalties, etc?

Works for me also ... I suggested the TRC simply because I figured Shawn and JP are pretty busy already with the SIM, database management, OOPPS...

Dodgers · Post by **Dodgers** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:40 pm

Austin Kearns, who was trying to make it back from a stress fracture in his left foot, has been shut down.

Ronnie Belliard won't return from his strained groin, the Nationals announced.

Jarrod Washburn probably won't pitch again this season because of a strained abdominal muscle.

Dodgers · Post by **Dodgers** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:19 am

Taylor Buchholz has been shut down for the season with right shoulder inflammation.

Marlins · Post by **Marlins** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:34 am

So I take it we now are using this thread as the be-all, end-all list of who can/can't play?

Dodgers · Post by **Dodgers** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:51 am

I've kind of just been posting everything I've seen relating to season-ending and if someone wants to contest it then that's their prerogative.

Cardinals · Post by **Cardinals** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:08 pm

I think it's much easier to bench everybody for the season who are shut down because of injury rather than leave some grey area where somebody ends up being pissed off because their injured guy can't play, but somebody else's can. If a pitcher is shut down due to reaching his innings pitched limit, that's entirely different. He's not hurt, teams would just be being protective of that pitchers arm.

That said, if someone wishes to contest an injury they are welcome to do so as Shawn previously stated.

Marlins · Post by **Marlins** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:39 pm

Ben Sheets done for the year.

The Brewers acknowledged Thursday that when Ben Sheets left his Sept. 1 start, it was more about his sore arm than a tight groin.
It's uncertain when Sheets might pitch again.

Giants · Post by **Giants** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:59 pm

Pirates wrote:I think it's much easier to bench everybody for the season who are shut down because of injury rather than leave some grey area where somebody ends up being pissed off because their injured guy can't play, but somebody else's can. If a pitcher is shut down due to reaching his innings pitched limit, that's entirely different. He's not hurt, teams would just be being protective of that pitchers arm.

That said, if someone wishes to contest an injury they are welcome to do so as Shawn previously stated.

OK, then I am contesting Fred Lewis's injury on the grounds that it wasn't a new injury, it was a condition that he had been playing with for months

updates per Rotoworld:
Fred Lewis-OF - Giants Jul. 23 - 2:50 am et

Fred Lewis started Tuesday and had a solo homer in four at-bats against the Nationals.
Lewis didn't play Sunday because of a bunion on his foot, but there's a good chance he would have had the day off against the left-hander anyway.

Fred Lewis-OF - Giants Aug. 4 - 9:13 am et

Fred Lewis was out of the starting lineup Sunday because of a sore foot, but walked as a pinch-hitter.
Lewis indicated that the injury would normally require a prolonged rest, but he doesn't want to risk losing his starting job by sitting too many games out. "I know how to pick and choose my battles," Lewis said. "When I'm hurt, sometimes I grimace. But I try not to show it."

In fact, he was so not disabled that in his final game he posted 2 hits and if the Giants were in contention he would certainly still be playing (seeing as he leads the team in XBH).

Cardinals · Post by **Cardinals** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:35 pm

Giants wrote:Ben Sheets done for the year.

The Brewers acknowledged Thursday that when Ben Sheets left his Sept. 1 start, it was more about his sore arm than a tight groin.
It's uncertain when Sheets might pitch again.

This does not say that Sheets is done for the year. It says it's uncertain when he may pitch again. We'll find out more info on Sheets as the news comes along.

Marlins · Post by **Marlins** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:12 am

Rod Barajas

An MRI peformed Thursday on Rod Barajas revealed a Grade 2 tear of his left hamstring.
He's likely finished for the year.

Daniel Cabrera

Daniel Cabrera wonÃt pitch again this season because of a strained elbow.
His second MRI in a month alledgedly still showed no damage in the elbow, but the Orioles won't force Cabrera to try to give it another go.

Shaun Marcum

Shaun Marcum is done for the rest of the year because of the arm injury that caused him to leave Tuesday's start.
It sounds like Marcum might need an operation. Results of his MRI have been sent to Dr. James Andrews for another opinion.

Justin Duchscherer

Justin Duchscherer cut short his simulated game Thursday after 10 pitches and is likely done for the season.
Duchscherer hoped to start Saturday, but his strained hip won't allow it.

Mat Gamel

Mat Gamel was scheduled for tests Thursday after admitting to a sore right elbow.
It's been bothering him for some time, but he had been keeping it a secret, even from the Brewers. He probably figured that he wouldn't get his September callup otherwise.

Edwin Encarnacion

Edwin Encarnacion was scratched from the lineup Wednesday after injuring his left wrist in his final at-bat Tuesday.
"You know he's hurting if he says something," manager Dusty Baker said. "He never goes in the training room." Andy Phillips started in Encarnacion's place.

Randy Flores

Randy Flores was unavailable Wednesday because of elbow soreness.
"It's been there for a while," Flores said. "I'm just going to take it day by day and see where it leaves me."

Anthony Reyes

Anthony Reyes said Wednesday that an MRI exam on his injured elbow revealed no major problems.
He's expected to avoid surgery, but won't pitch again this season. "It's inflamed," Reyes said. "It needs rest. I'm not going to do anything for a month." If healthy, Reyes figures to land a spot in the Indians' rotation next season and could be undervalued in AL-only leagues.

Brian Buscher

Brian Buscher exited Wednesday's game in the seventh inning with a jammed left thumb.
He was starting at first base while Justin Morneau got a half-day off at designated hitter.

Howie Kendrick

According to the Los Angeles Times, Howie Kendrick (hamstring) is "questionable for the playoffs."
The newspaper reports that Kendrick could return next week "at the earliest" and "the Angels are formulating contingency plans if he is not available" for the postseason that includes moving Chone Figgins to second base.

Eric Patterson

Eric Patterson left WednesdayÃs game in the fifth inning with a strained right hamstring.
Patterson was hurt running out a grounder. Bobby Crosby replaced him, with Cliff Pennington moving from short to second.

Michael Young

Michael Young came out of Wednesday's game because of his fractured right ring finger.
Young has been playing through the soreness for weeks, but it might be time for him to shut it down. He's not going to get to 200 hits when he's still 29 away with nine games left. Ramon Vazquez would start at short if Young calls it a season.

Chone Figgins

Chone Figgins will have his sore right elbow reexamined by Dr. Lewis Yocum on Thursday.
He's likely to have another set of X-rays and an MRI. Figgins has been having pain in the elbow since he was hit by a Carl Pavano pitch nine days ago. "ItÃs just the soreness isnÃt going away," he said. "With ice and things like that, the soreness usually goes away. Ã– I just wonder why itÃs not going away. ThatÃs what I want to know." Robb Quinlan is playing third base tonight.

Bobby Abreu

Bobby Abreu went 3-for-5 with two homers off Javier Vazquez and drove in six runs in the Yankees' 9-2 win over the White Sox on Thursday.
Abreu's .272 average versus Vazquez is nothing to write home about, but nine of his 20 hits against the right-hander have been homers. The two homers tonight gave him 19 this season, putting him in position to get 20 for the first time since 2005.

Chris Perez

Chris Perez was removed in the ninth inning Thursday, opening the door for Jason Motte to pick up his first career save.
Perez was taken out after two walks and a two-out RBI single pulled the Reds to within 5-4. Motte came in and got Jeff Keppinger to fly out to center, ending the game. It wouldn't be much of a surprise to see Motte get the next save chance the Cards generate. He's yet to allow an earned run in six innings since being called up.

Cardinals · Post by **Cardinals** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:44 am

I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove. We've already set up (and had) an appeals process for these players if somebody feels they are being wrongly benched, and now you're just listing what looks like any player on rotoworld that did anything last night. How the hell is Bobby Abreu hitting two home runs an injury?

Dodgers · Post by **Dodgers** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:54 am

Todd Helton (back) said Sunday that he doesn't expect to play again this season.

WhiteSox · Post by **WhiteSox** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:58 am

I'd argue that if Colorado was in a race and needed Helton he would be in there...

Dodgers · Post by **Dodgers** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:03 pm

Yankees wrote:I'd argue that if Colorado was in a race and needed Helton he would be in there...

Helton has pinch-hit twice since coming off the disabled list, but his back problems haven't gone away and he's scheduled to be examined by a specialist Wednesday. "Hopefully we can pinpoint what's causing my pain and find the best method to get me better," Helton said. "There's no way I could play a game right now."

I'd argue that pretty much proves you wrong.

Marlins · Post by **Marlins** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:34 pm

I think there is a distinction we need to make of "can't play right now" vs "done for the year." A guy might not be able to play now but could make it back for the last few games of the year if his team needed him, which in most cases is not the case.

Mariners · Post by **Mariners** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:54 pm

Agreed. Also, as a league as a whole, we should be striving to make our emphasis center on trying to have as many players as possible eligible to play in the IBC as opposed to what seems to be the focus today, of limiting as many players as possible.