MLB gun control?

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Post by Astros »

Lincoln
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Between 10,000-30,000 political prisoners in the North from 1861-1865 that were held without trial. Dissolved the Indiana Democratic Convention in 1862 at bayonet point and funded Governor Oliver P. Morton for 3 years when he dissolved the legislature due to it having a Democratic majority. Had Congressman Clement Vandillingham of Ohio arrested for criticizing his war policies and then deported him. Ordered civilian executions in Missouri. Installed a puppet government in Missouri after forcing out the elected state government that favored neutrality or secession. I could go on
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Post by Orioles »

States rights kinda goes out the window when those states choose open rebellion to support a tradition of rape, murder and enslavement of peoples based on their ethnicity. War between states was kind of a unique situation.

In other news, Mississippi just officially abolished slavery. As a side note, flying the stars n' bars to show "southern pride" is like a German person waving the swastika to show their love of deutschland. Get a new flag (like South Carolina finally did). Fly the flag of whatever backwater swamp of a state you come from, for example. The state-sanctioned mistreatment of non-white anglo-saxon people in the southern US well into the 20th century is and will always be a gigantic embarrassment to this country.

If there's any reason to be sore at Lincoln, it's that he ensured that we northerners would have to continue apologizing for our retarded cousins to the south until they're edumacated enough to stop saying and doing stupid things. Still waiting.

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Post by Astros »

Lordy we're getting into my soapbox are here.

Secession is a Constitutional right. There's a reason Jefferson Davis was never put on trail for treason, they knew that they could never prove secession was illegal. The war was about one thing, economics. The Confederacy was going to be a free trade zone with no tariffs. What happens then? The North is bankrupt, because all European trade that goes through New York (one of the mayoral candidates in 1860 said he would secede to join the Confederacy for this reason) and other northern cities is suddenly going to New Orleans, Charleston and other Southern ports because it will be cheaper and they don't need a middle man for cotton anymore. And before you bring up slavery, every other nation emancipated their slaves peacefully by 1888, so don't give me the general, schoolbook taught myth that the war was about slavery and slavery alone and that we'd still have slaves without it. Compensated emancipation would've been a feasible alternative but the Radical Republicans would've never stood for it. Lincoln was asked after being elected why he shouldn't let the South go, his answer was "Let the South go? Who would pay for the government?" Southern taxes paid for something like 80% of all federal revenue in 1860 and they got 15% of that money back, the rest was sent north to fund industry.

Mississippi's paperwork was lost when they initially did it, so that's a non story. Dan, do you have any idea why the Constitution didn't ban the slave trade until 25 years after it was written? That would be because the northeast, with all its interests in shipping, and the slave trade, threw a fit in Philadelphia and made sure that provision was included. Every ship that hauled a slave to the United States flew the stars and stripes.

Race relations were better in the South until Reconstruction (laws put in place the harm the South economically that were still in place well into the 20th century, such as the ones protecting Pennsylvania steel over steel made in Alabama), when the carpetbaggers took over, bankrupted states and destroyed everything the war didn't. Read Alexis de Tocqueville. How about all those northern states that had laws preventing blacks from living in the state, or staying in the state more than a week? How about the Midwest being the stronghold of the Klan in the 1920s when it was at its most powerful? How about the fact that Boston was having riots over busing in the 1980s and that Cincinnati had a race riot in the 2000s? Racism never has been a sectional issue, but the narrative spun has and always will be that it was. There's 2 sides of every coin, history is history, warts and all. Maybe when you get edumacated enough to understand that we can have an actual debate on these kinds of topics
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Yes, I also took enough history classes to know the economic bases for the Civil War. Pretty much every war can be boiled down to economics, but that doesn't mean social and cultural justifications didn't exist. People can talk themselves into believing anything (as evidenced by your soliloquy above), even things as silly as "the holocaust didn't happen" and "the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery." Compensated emancipation? Pay off the terrorists? Nah, better that the slave-owning population had to suffer for their horrific crimes. Granted, everyone was complicit in these crimes to a degree and for a time, but putting cash in the hands that held the whips and chains wouldn't have been something to be proud of. That's for sure. Huzzah industrialization! That seemed to work out for the better, as I'm not sure we'd be in such good shape had we stuck with a semi-feudal agriculture-based economy.

Race relations were better during slavery? Seriously? Ok, admittedly, there are stupid people everywhere, and concepts about human rights had to develop over time everywhere in the country (and the world) for the practice of slavery to be stamped out. Tocqueville wrote Democracy in America about 60 years before the Civil War, so while many of his generalizations are even relevant today, the details of his description dealt with turn-of-the-19th-century America, which isn't what we're discussing here.

The fact that racism has and does exist in other parts of the country doesn't mean it's not more pervasive in the south. Indentured servitude, effectively enslavement, of black people existed in areas of the south until as recently as the 1940s. Do we need to count 20th century lynchings and church bombings by state? Not so many "whites only" signs in 1960s Pawtucket, Rhode Island as Huntsville, Alabama I'd bet. Of course there are no absolutes in history, and poor, undereducated people everywhere (including Boston) tend to be more ignorant and afraid of difference (especially race). This is particularly true where the public education system is at its poorest... the south. It's a simple and obvious fact that discrimination, mistreatment and violence based on race is - and always has been - more prevalent in the southern states than the northern ones. At least to anyone who hasn't indulged in some kind of hometown denial self-conditioning program and convinced themselves otherwise.

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Post by Yankees »

Mississippi's paperwork was lost when they initially did it, so that's a non story.

Interesting effort to just gloss over this. The paperwork wasn't lost in 1865...it was lost in 1995. They and Kentucky were the only two states to ratify this in what we'll call the "modern era"...and that's even being liberal with Kentucky (1976).

Mississippi outwardly rejected the ratification of the 13th amendment at the time it happened...and then really did nothing about it for 130 years. And then did nothing about it for another 18 years.
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Post by Astros »

With how amendments can be ratified by the states, an amendment can be ratified with 38 states approving the ratification so it doesn't matter if the other states approve or not. That is why that route for ratification is rarely traveled. Is it awful they waited that long? No question, but at the same time it had no impact on the enforcement of the amendment
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Yes, but by saying "lost when they initially did it" and trying to cover it as a "non-story" was implying that some carrier pigeon did not deliver the ratified deed in 1865. 1995 is just as inexcusable as 2013.
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Post by BlueJays »

In 1939 I bet a lot of German people also believed that if you were worried about a "heavily armored government overseeing a weaponless country" that you should take your head out of the sand.
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