A-Fraud

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A-Fraud

Post by DBacks »

What a sad day for baseball. Like him or hate him, it would have been nice to have at least one guy to point to and say, "He was great and he was clean." But, there goes that. Now we just have to hope Pujols' name never shows up.
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Cubs wrote:What a sad day for baseball. Like him or hate him, it would have been nice to have at least one guy to point to and say, "He was great and he was clean." But, there goes that. Now we just have to hope Pujols' name never shows up.
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Post by Astros »

Really though, knowing what we know about ARod as a person, is it all that surprising? The more I think about it, the less shocked I am. In fact, I saw it on Sportscenter right when I woke up, and I didn't have a "Holy shit" reaction, it was more of a "Hmmmmm, wonder how long he juiced. Oh Gameday's in Spokane today."
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Post by Giants »

I guess all I can say is "take that" to all the people who gave me shit about cheering for Barry Bonds over the years.
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Post by Nationals »

Who has ever really been an ARod fan?
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Post by Rangers »

Twins wrote:Who has ever really been an ARod fan?
JB
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Post by Giants »

Twins wrote:Who has ever really been an ARod fan?
All of America when it came to breaking Barry's "tainted" record
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Post by DBacks »

there's really no need for the quotes around tainted.

and frank thomas was a DH so he's not a good enough example for me. find me a real ballplayer.
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Post by Royals »

Athletics wrote:I guess all I can say is "take that" to all the people who gave me shit about cheering for Barry Bonds over the years.
Right. you cheered for Bonds with evidence beating everyone in the face while those who cheered for a-Rod did so not knowing what he did.
As Aaron said from what we've seen of his character, it really isn't all that shocking, but as much as any of us disliked the guy, i don't think anyone here really thought he was dirty.
The funny part is this just makes Canseco that much more right. He's a prick and a greedy opportunist, but it seems he was more honest than most.
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Post by Padres »

Cubs wrote: ... frank thomas was a DH so he's not a good enough example for me. find me a real ballplayer.
The Big Hurt was a real athlete. He played 1B for years before DHing. Thomas also played tight end for Bo Jackson's Auburn football team Thomas freshman year (in fact he went to Auburn on a football scholarship). While 500 HRs is no longer the Hall of Fame lock it once was considered - largely due to performance enhancment issue - Thomas has hit over 500 career home runs and should receive serious consideration when he is elgible because he has stayed clean. More importantly, the Big Hurt is part of an elite group as one of only four players in baseball history to have at least a .300 average, 500 home runs, 1,500 RBI, 1,000 runs and 1,500 walks in a career ... the others being Hall of Famers Mel Ott, Babe Ruth and Ted Williams.

He never won a Glod Glove - and didn't deserve one - but when he won his two MVPs he was a 1B. For comparasion sake you will find that Thomas is one of only two 1B in history to win consecutive Most Valuable Player awards in the major leagues (Hall-of-Famer Jimmie Foxx being the other in 1932—33). To your point, 4,678 of his career at-bats (57 %) were as a designated hitter, and primary DHs (Harold Baines, for example) don't get far with Hall of Fame voters so perhaps Thomas will not get elected. But those were the rules in place at the time he played - were there no DH it is likely that he would have continued to play 1B. As it turns out Thomas was the first player in Major League history to win two silver slugger awards each at two different positions (1993-94 at 1B; 1991 & 2000 as DH).

The following hits the nail right on the head:

There are two arguments against Frank being inducted. Selfish attitude and being a designated hitter. I think these are weak arguments! Selfish attitude has never kept anyone out of the Hall. If it had, the Hall would be significantly smaller. Most young, millionaire athletes have a certain amount of selfishness to them. Frank has never broken the law and has never been found guilty of cheating. He has always been a staunch supporter of steroid testing and, despite his size, it is widely known that Frank is not a steroid user. The DH argument is unfair. The designated hitter is a position in baseball whether the National League likes it or not. You can't punish a player for playing a position that is part of the game! That being said, Frank played first base for the better part of eight years. Some Hall of Fame careers have been no longer than ten to twelve years. Then consider this. If Frank had played the field his entire career and was the worst first baseman ever, leading the league in errors every year, would his chances at the Hall be better? According to many sportswriters, the answer is yes! This makes absolutely no sense! And anybody who thinks if there was no designated hitter that Frank would have sat on the bench is crazy.

(Thanks to Dan Kascher for that ...)

He was as surly as he was huge but he also was quietly behind the scenes doing good works as the following examples show: Established the Frank Thomas Charitable Foundation in 1993 to improve the lives of Chicago-area residents... Created "Big Hurt's Buddies" program to supply hundreds of free tickets to fans... Donates $50,000 annually to the Leukemia Society of America in memory of a younger sister who passed away from the disease when he was 10... I am admittedly a White Sox homer but you don't have to be one to see that as more sluggers are exposed as steroid users, the better Frank Thomas' numbers look.
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Post by DBacks »

If Frank had played the field his entire career and was the worst first baseman ever, leading the league in errors every year, would his chances at the Hall be better?
In my book? Yes. Wanna be a real ballplayer? Use a glove. I know my view is extreme, but its my opinion. You're not a baseball player if you don't have to own a mitt.
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Post by Dodgers »

How about Ken Griffey?
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Post by Royals »

Griffey used nerve tonic. Just ask Homer.
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Post by Giants »

RedSox wrote:
Athletics wrote:I guess all I can say is "take that" to all the people who gave me shit about cheering for Barry Bonds over the years.
Right. you cheered for Bonds with evidence beating everyone in the face while those who cheered for a-Rod did so not knowing what he did.
As Aaron said from what we've seen of his character, it really isn't all that shocking, but as much as any of us disliked the guy, i don't think anyone here really thought he was dirty.
The funny part is this just makes Canseco that much more right. He's a prick and a greedy opportunist, but it seems he was more honest than most.
That character thing is precisely what was so frustrating about the Bonds thing. There was a disproportionate amount of coverage on Bonds (and investigation into him), in spite of clear evidence that he was just one of many, and not even the only big fish. There were assumptions and all that directed at Bonds long before there was any direct evidence, and if all that effort was directed more evenly then guys like A-Rod and Clemens would have been busted sooner.
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Post by Royals »

Disproportionate? He broke two of the most treasured records in baseball! Nobody gives a rat's ass about Manny Alexander because he's a obody. Bonds set the single season and career HR marks as a juicer. He then lied to a grand jury and denied everything no matter how much evidence mounted against him. The assumptions were based on observation and circumstantial evidence, evidence that turned out to be correct. The outrage against Bonds was largest because of his lies and denials in the face of ever-mounting evidence and his stature in the game. Who is second on that list? Clemens, and deservedly so.
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Post by Giants »

No one gives a shit about Manny Alexander. I'm talking about Rick Reilly and Skip Bayless's personal crusade to bring down Barry Bonds for steroid use going all the way back to 2000 that ignored every other player in baseball. I'm talking about Pedro Gomez cutting into ESPN to let us know every time Barry took a dump. Where was A-Rod's Pedro Gomez? Where was Clemens? The get Barry campaign started years before there was any legitimate evidence. It started before 73, and long before 756 became a certainty. A-Rod went 40/40, won MVP's, and was on his way to becoming the best player on the league's signature team. Clemens won 300 games, all those Cy Young awards, all that shit, and oh yeah he was in New York too. If there were two players in baseball on Barry's level they were absolutely A-Rod and Clemens, and it's not like there weren't whispers about either guy, but there was seemingly an executive decision that Barry was the big fish they were going to get. If you're trying to say that the suspicions about other sure-fire first ballot Hall of Famers of the steroid era got treatment that was in any way similar to Bonds you're even more wrong than when you tried to claim that the Moneyball A's were winning weak divisions.

By the way, does this mean that Alfonso Soriano is now the only legitimate 40/40 man in baseball history? Crazy. Even crazier, the year Bonds went 40/40 he finished 5th in the MVP voting, the winner that year? Ken Caminiti.
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Post by Royals »

Trying to put words in my mouth again Jake? I didn't say they got similar treatment. Tthey didn't because the situations were different.
It started because Bonds suddenly started to LOOK like a roider and went from being a very good hitter to an inhuman beast at the age of 36. Clemens didn't have the inhuman spike in production (or change in physiology) that Bonds did. Neither did A-rod. The guy hit 36 hr's as a 20yr old, why would anyone think twice about him popping up to 52 and 57 at age 25/26 after moving from the oppressive hitting environment of Seattle to the homer haven of Texas? But a 36 year old hitting 73 homeruns? No fucking way is somebody who does that clean.
I'm not defending any of them, you'd be pretty hard pressed to find a trio of players I loather more than those three. In fact, it would probably be impossible. But you KNEW something funny was going on with Bonds, even if you couldn't prove it. The only reason you think the coverage was unfair is because you were almost as hard-on for that shitbag as Gabe was for Sosa (sorry Gabe). It wasn't the same coverage as others got, because the situations weren't the same, but the coverage WAS fair for the situations and the stature of those involved. Bonds was obvious, he was the most high profile and he lied through his teeth the entire way and has continued to do so without an ounce of contrition while he let his dealer go to prison to cover for him. That's why he gets the worst of it, because he WAS the worst of it. After everything he pulled, people were almost numb to the moronic babblings of Roger Clemens (though Pettitte throwing him under the bus was pretty sweet) and at least A-rod fessed up (even if it was just a PR move) within a week.

Yes, now Soriano may be the only legit 40/40 guy, though I wouldn't be even a little bit surprised if he was one of the 103 unnamed positives. Actually, I kind of expect it.
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Post by Giants »

You're missing the point completely. For a decade ESPN, Sports Illustrated, and sports talk radio declared that Barry Bonds and by extension the entire franchise was completely illegitimate. Over and over again Baroid this and Baroid that. Meanwhile equally obvious things were happening all over the majors, not just with Manny Alexander, but with Hall of Fame guys. A-Rod and Clemens we know about. Big Mac, who hit 70 at 34 and 65 at 35 before quietly sneaking off into the sunset where he would have remained if he hadn't screwed up at that congressional hearing so badly was a much more obvious juicer than Bonds. Sosa, Giambi (granted he was a very borderline HOF'er, but when the Yankees signed him they thought they were getting the missing piece), Pudge, and many others showed up 30-50 pounds lighter. The same year Bonds hit 73 Rafael Palmeiro hit 47, also at age 36. I remember when Eric Gagne first came up with the Dodgers as a starter, he sucked. Suddenly simply moving him to the bullpen gives him the most dominant stuff ever? My point is that as far back as 2000 there was a presumption of guilt around Bonds that didn't extend to anyone else, no matter how good a player and how obvious a juicer they were. Bonds' achievements were immediately questioned while everyone else's were celebrated, and it was the only time the Giants were ever in the news despite the fact that they were arguably the class of the NL West from 1997-2004. If the only coverage the Red Sox ever got was about everyone accusing Pedro Martinez of using some sort of high tech disappearing ball to get hitters out you'd be bitter too.
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Post by BlueJays »

Some random thoughts about steroids, arod, and this thread.

Fighting over which of these douche bags got treated more unfairly seems silly. They're all douche bags.

It really didn't shock me when I saw this initial report. What shocked me is how quick arod admitted to it.

I hate the era of baseball I grew up watching more and more by the day. I mean, it seemed glorious, but its just almost all billshit. A strike, and then steroids - that is the defining moments of the 90s for me.. Not the sosa/bigmac HR chase.
Ironically, the Mac/sosa HOUR chase and the 99 reds got me loving baseball again, after I had developed deep resentment for the sport since the strike.

To me, these players are just as bad as one Peter Edward Rose. They had little respect for the game they supposedly love, and walked on its integrity. Just how I feel.

I also don't know if I can defenitively believe that there is a clean superstar of this era. I mean, my heart wants to tell me that a Frank Thomas or Ken griffey was, but I will forever have a seed of doubt planted now.

And when or if that day ever comes, I will be disappointed, but just like when this report surfaced, not the least bit surprised.

I wonder when the time will come when we just say F it and move on..
I wonder when I will care for this sport again as much as I did before steroid use was a revelation.

I wonder why everyone seems to forget arod already lying about his steroid use in interviews, and why they are going to give him the "giambi" pass, and forget that he would never have fessed up if he wasn't explicitly linked. Just because you admit guilt after your caught doesn't make it okay..

I hate bonds, i hate big Mac, I hate sosa, and I hate arod. I hate steroids. I hate baseball for allowing this to happen. I hate that MLB is catching the most heat, also. Why not the NFL? Don't you think there's extensive juicing going on there?

Fuck, I'm drunk, enough rambling. Sorry, had to get these thoughts out.
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Post by Yankees »

I've come to my conclusions on A-Rod:
1) I'm not surprised
2) I'm happy he handled it the wayt that he did

And it's embarassing to have to admit both of those.
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Post by Astros »

The only reason ARod handled it the way he did is because his PR people told him "Hey, Andy Pettitte fessed up when he got caught and everyone forgave him. If you do the same, maybe you'll be forgiven." He's admitted to 3 years of steroid use, wipe out his stats for those 3 years. They don't count, it never happened
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Post by Mets »

What's next? Pujols?
2008-2023 Mets: 1,054-1,223...463%
2006-2008 Rockies: 242-244...498%

IBC Total: 1,296-1,467...469%
2022: lost WC
2023: lost WC
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Post by DBacks »

I don't care why he admitted it, as long as he did. Anything is better than a Clemens-Bonds type denial. He could have been one of the best, and still is in my mind, though he is forever tainted. Its so frustrating... he so clearly would be one of the greats without dope, I don't know why he did it. At least when Bonds made his turn to the dark side, it was easily explained - jealousy.

Bonds is damn near Shakespearian. The more I think about it, he is absolutely Shakespearian. Sad really. Oh well, fuck him, he's a douche.

And this post would be incomplete if I did not mention this simple fact - "Still no positive Sosa test."

And can you really not understand why Bonds was treated the way he did? At least Mac and Sosa battled the suspicions with smiles and positive attitudes. Mac and Sosa were easy guys to like. They were good for the game. Bonds was a douche. No way around it. You can try to blame that on the media, because they are unfair sometimes, but he was a douche. Bonds was breaking the two of the most hallowed records in ALL of sports. He did it dirty and he did it as an asshole. Of course the media and the public were against him.
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Post by DBacks »

Mets wrote:What's next? Pujols?
I hope not and I hope so at the same time.
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Post by Giants »

After listening to A-Rod's interview in its entirety I'm quite convinced that he didn't tell the whole story. First of all, he says he doesn't know what triggered the test, but we do, and its drugs like Primobolan, which is a no joke steroid, not something you can just get at GNC (actually it was one of Governor Schawrzenegger's favorites). A-Rod's size has stayed pretty consistent, he himself acknowledged no major weight gain even when he was on the juice, so he's remarkably consistent size wise. Also, let's consider A-Rod's character for a second. He was off to New York, the biggest stage, and what this guy cares about the most is his reputation as one of the best ever. You really buy that he's going to risk his first year in New York on giving up the juice?
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